Could be that maybe one of those fools who are permitted to carry, might just save your life one day.

Just a couple of questions for you Anti-Gun, Anti-Loaded Gun Types.

1) What does a criminal look like?
2) What does a rapist look like?
3) What does a child molestor look like?
4) What does a murderer look like?

My point is, you can not tell the differance on looks alone. Criminals don't care about the law as it is, so why restrict the law abiding from protecting themselves against the lawless. Trouble never makes an appointment, it never scheduals a time when it will strike and make you the victim. Just because you have the tool doesn't mean your going to use it for illegal purposes like poaching or worse. Heck if I were a poacher in the park, I sure would not use a firearm, bowhunting is actually more quiet and bows are perfectly legal to carry in the parks as there is no law that I know of preventing it.

When law abiding citizens carry concealed firearms, and the criminal element knows that they could run into an intended victim that just might be able to protect themselves, the crime is less likely to occure. It is far better to have and not need it, than to need it and not have it as I did one time out away from everyone, out in the country where I had a guy pull a knife on me. His mind was change abruptly, as he dropped his knife and headed off in the other direction. Had I not been armed with a LOADED FIREARM, the results would have turned out differantly.

As an ex-cop with 20 yrs experience, I welcome more people legally licensed to carry and defend themselves.

And oh yes, the reason I carry a concealed firearm, it's simple.... because a cop is just to large and heavy to carry around in my back pocket.

As usual, who's the bigger fool? You or the ones your calling "Fool's". These people you are calling fool's are law abiding citizens, that have gone through the rigorous and sometimes expensive task of getting CCW's, ( Carry Concealed Weapon) licenses after a complete back round check, by the FBI and complete proficiency test to be,( Honored) as you would think , with their constitutional rights to carry a weapon for self protection of themselves, their families and even you, in the event they are around when you are in trouble! Yes, they might even help you or yours? They are not the Criminals, they are the Honest Law abiding Citizens that ignorant people like you call fools! Get a dictionary, look up criminal, and you will find the definition of the people that you should be afraid of, very afraid!! My only hope is to have brought an ignorant person up to light of what is really going on in today's society!!!!!!!!

"When seconds count law enforcement is only minutes away" I learned this first hand.

Well, all I have to say about this is
IT'S FAR FAR BETTER TO BE TRIED BY 9 THAN CARRIED BY 6.

Also there are those that feel that something is only illegal if you get caught.
Our government works that way and so does Wall Street.

It wasn't that very long ago that the NPS would NEVER recommend going into the back country "unarmed" I have older park brochures that can verify that.
It was only changed recently at the behest of some people that persuaded Pres Regan.

It would appear that NPCA needs to moveon.org
http://www.bighammer.net/timeline.html#12/05/08

Final regulation approved by DOI will allow weapons.

Is that all you got, name calling law abiding citizens. Get a grip

As a gun owner who is also a concealed carry your argument does not have merit when you say (the fear factor would go away if one could had a firearm) When I am carrying a gun concealed or other wise I am very mindful of my responsibility and fear does not go away because I have a gun. Only a fool would think such a thing.

Well said!!!

Concealed Weapons holders are the most law abiding segment of the public at large. They are hardly the fools that this anonymous coward intimates. They are much more likely to err on the side of caution and sensibility than are the general public. It is a fools argument to say that people will feel safer if they know no one is carrying a firearm, when they have no way of knowing if any one in their proximity is carrying a firearm. In addition it is at least as likely that a criminal or lawbreaker will have an illegal firearm and I certainly would feel very uncomfortable visiting any Federal park if I was unable to protect myself with my legally owned and concealed firearm. That is the purpose of concealed. Know one knows except the concealed License holder. What I suggest is that those who do not want to carry a firearm, not carry a firearm. I find some books to be much more dangerous to the uninformed than a trained person with a legally owned concealed firearm. I will respect your rights in the park and you respect my inherent right to protect myself and my family from harm, legally.

The Macy's Christmas Baby of 1938
approves this message.

Editor's note: Today's developments are certainly not surprising. The reaction from those in support of the regulation change and those against it is not surprising, either. However, please respect the opinions that are espoused, even if you do not agree with them, and do not resort to gratuitous attacks. As long as those two simple rules can be adhered to, the Traveler is interested in hearing what you have to say.

All anyone has to do is read Mr. T-FLY to realise what a twit he is? He accuses the "goobers" of using lots of caps and exclamation points all in caps and exclamation points. His argument is as inept and illogical as is his undeniable assumptions. Have you ever had an original thought in your life, T-FLY, or do you just normally go around in a daze? See my previous post for the truth about concealed weapons and ownership. The most law abiding segment of the public at large are concealed weapons holders. Significantly more law abiding per capita, than our illustrious congress in Washington.
The Macy's Christmas Baby of 1938
approves this message.

T-Fly You pose a bigger problem to visitors to the parks pgrowing your illegal weed there and somking it !!

Kurt, I thank you for the privilege of commenting on this site and am glad to see you taking a stand on ad hominem attacks. (I again apologize for falling prey to this trap in my earlier comments here.)

However, I don't believe that we should necessarily respect opinions. I've quoted Jonathan Rauch before, and here's a paragraph from Kindly Inquisitors that I have repeated for the last dozen years:

I'm very glad to see this passed. As a law enforcement officer, I recongnize, unlike many others, that there are hundreds of tousands of folks just like myself who carry a concealed firearm while off-duty, solely for the protection of myself and others.

Criminals don't care about laws. With the old law, the criminals would still carry their weapons onto the federal land, while the law abiding citizens would follow the law and not carry. That would create federal lands, with only criminals having firearms.

With the passage of this law, you may still have the criminals carrying guns where they aren't suppose to, but at least you will also have people like myself there able to defend my own family, and maybe even yours.

It is common sense, but unfortunately many people don't have that, it just can't be taught...

Wow, the comments of many in here are downright scary at times and simply retarded at others. The simple fact is that someone who goes to the trouble, training and expense of obtaining a CCW is 99.99% of the time a person I, and my family, are not in any way shape or form concerned about having a firearm on their person. The simple fact is there have been many instances of people being prayed on in a national park, not only by criminals, but yes, wild animals. You people do realize that wild animals do exist in a National Park don't you? How would you like to come across a bear with your young children and realize you have no way of protecting that child should a wild animal decide to attack? This does not mean that any gun owner wants to have to shoot an animal, or a person for that matter, ever! It means last resort, me, my child, or a bear I'm going to protect my child and my family. If you want to be a victim, if you want to be forced to stand by while you or your family are attacked, you go right ahead, however, the Constitution of this country states that I have an implicit right to self protection and an implicit right to a firearm for that protection. If you don't like it then that same Constitution has a mechanism to change that Constitution and you are free to try and do so. Until that day, tough beans. And for the record, I am a gun owner, I don't have a CCW and I have never felt the need to have one nor carry my gun, but that doesn't mean I, or anyone else doesn't have that right. If you can't handle that, then as I said, change it or go somewhere where you don't have those rights. If you're a Park Ranger and you don't like, retire, go do something else, but don't you dare for a second think you have the right to take away my rights. We employ you, not the other way around.

Hello all

So very few people understand the issues guns and safety. We have those that are totally opposed and only have or use certain data to back up their beliefs and we have those for that do exactly the same. Well I look at it completely objectively.

First it's sad that we need to carry guns to begin with. But there is a climate in this country that makes is so that some of us feel safer if we have it.

When I go out in the wild I carry one but never with the intent of killing anything but rather just protection in case some situation comes up. That's all. I also am far more apt to carry one if I have my family or friends with me. You simply never know what might happen. It can be looked at as an insurance policy if you like.

Now about concealed guns in our national parks. Let's face it, they are being carried today and have been for years. There is that segment of our society and it's much larger than you think that carry concealed guns where ever they go. Whether you walk the streets of LA or are out in some park makes no difference, the ones who have them now are the ones that are truly dangerous and have a superior feeling or power knowing that it's highly unlikely that an ordinary citizen has one because the law says they can't. So the criminal has the advantage and knows it.

Now something that few people know is the fact that criminals are afraid of people that carry guns or have them in their homes. A prison psychologist once told me the reason that home invasions are rare is because they are afraid of being shot by the homeowner. The point is that when law abiding citizens can carry concealed guns the criminals become hesitant about randomly targeting people. Florida is a prime example of that. They adopted the concealed carry law, people against it predicted dire consequences which didn't happened and in fact just the opposite happened. Shooting went down.

The truth is that all people whether they carry or not will be safer in parks and the streets. Law abiding citizens are just that, they will always be law abiding, carrying a gun doesn't make them stupid. That concept is relegated to the movies. This is only one point of many I want to make about carrying guns, owning guns, etc. Learn about the issue OBJECTIVELY and HONESTLY and keep your emotions out of it and stop making these statements that invoke fear, you aren't selling life insurance. BE HONEST about it and we'll do just fine.

Side note here: Now do you want to honestly do something about violence then get rid of the violence in the entertainment media, TV, movies, games! Stop teaching our children, young people and adults to be violent. The violence in this country comes as no surprise certainly not at the levels we have now. I'll add one more thought. Gun violence in this country and the globe for that matter is truly at this point a cultural and ethnic problem. I'm yes I don't believe in political correctness. Political correctness is nothing more than avoiding the truth.

nuff said and it probably doesn't matter a bit anyway. This country over all is getting to darn dumb on all issues.

Dennis

The media is typically liberal and there is a good reason for it. Has to do with learning styles and the type of person that gravitates towards a job in journalism. Plain and simple and I wont' take the time to explain it now.

Kurt wrote"Will park visitation drop off if the gun regulations are rewritten to make weapons more available in the parks?" It probably won't. Most likely it won't affect it at all. And remember if there comes a time when there is a gun problem the law will be reversed almost immediately. So this is an question that is addressing the extreme. After all there will be people there with concealed guns anyway and highly likely they are career criminals just visiting and they too seldom use their guns but they have them just the same. And they truly are more apt to use them if the opportunity might arise. If we all can carry the guns, those opportunities to the criminal will become less because he's not going to know if the person he's interested in attacking is armed or not.

Kurt wrote:""That's a good question, one that needs to be thought through extremely carefully by the folks at Interior. But I fear they are driven too much by politics to think clearly. Personally, I don't worry too greatly about it because I head to the backcountry where relatively few others do. But if I was heading to a campground, where folks sit around campfires and drink, where kids get into things when their parents aren't watching, yeah, I'd probably think twice about it."""
You focus on the extreme and irresponsible scenario. This truly is rare. Gun owners that I know are so darned diligent about guns and the education of their children. I"m 61 and I remember in Wisconsin living on the farm that every one of our neighbors had a gun cabinet usually in the living room with all the guns and ammunition right there. We knew and we never touched them!!!! Because we knew!!!! We knew the dangers and we were responsible. And not once did I or any of my friends or did I ever hear of anyone of them suggesting we take a gun without permission and go out and shoot it. Not once!!! Because we knew and even as kids has a strong sense of responsibility about it. I detect you deal in fear mongering and your opinion of gun owners is completely wrong.

Kurt wrote: ""Too, if you've read many of the comments that have been directed at me over this issue the past 2-plus years, you'd be rightfully concerned about the stability and focus of quite a few of the so-called good and law-abiding gun owners."""
This statement is a testimony of your perception of what a typical gun owner is. You are so wrong. I know you have never hung around gun owners or gone to a shooting range and become one of the members nor have you had a chance to mingle with them. I've had people come and visit that in some cases were against guns or some didn't know. And I would take them out to shoot and in some cases take them to a competition. It without exception changes their mind. The point is their source of education about guns has been the the news media and the perceived power of the guns on in the entertainment industry. Guns are now where as powerful as seen on TV.
\

Kuet wrote:"""And what about the young adults who might have just obtained their CCW permit and head everywhere they go with their firearm? """

This tells me that you have a low opinion of young adults and believe they are irresponsible. Put yourself in the shoes of a young adult interested enough to get a concealed carry permit. I'm afraid you are driven by prejudice. That's a sad commentary on your thought process and what makes it worse is that you sent this message to others when you were in the media business and you are wrong. Shame on you.

Kurt wrote:"""What if they're hiking down a trail, figure they're far away from civilization and rangers, and decide to take some target practice? What if they miss their target and hit a hiker coming the other way that they didn't see?"""

This is an extreme case. Can it happen, certainly. However it's much more likely to happen with a person that is carrying the gun illegally. They are the ones that don't care after all the gun laws don't pertain to them.. What you don't understand or feeled compelled to research and believe is that when people take on responsiblities they respond in a positive way. Just think of all the killing in this country, how many of them are committed by people with legally owned or carried guns? I'll bet that probably 99% or more are committed by people who have the weapon illegally and couldn't own one legally anyway! Think about LA, I've lived there! And it wrong to know that when you walk the streets that only the police and the criminals are carrying. And we have to walk the streets essentially completely vulnerable.

Kurt wrote: """What about bluffing grizzlies? Many times they'll charge you to intimidate. Will a gun owner resort to pulling the trigger rather than taking more appropriate action and either wound or completely miss the bear and end up worse for it?"""

I have to chuckle here. Being a gun owner and knowing my guns, the last resort would be to pull a gun and shoot. And it's so for the vast majority of gun owners because they know their guns and the power they have. If I carried to ward off a grizzly it would be to make a lot of noise with. I would not shoot the grizzly. However I suspect that if you have a gun, and you were threatened that you would. You essentially state that. You aren't a gun owner and know little about them and it shows! And again you are creating an extreme scenario which is what people like you do. It sad that people resort to that type of persuasion tactic.

Kuet wrote: ""Why are ranger groups and police groups opposed to expansion of CCW regulations?""" Is it because they're macho organizations that want to consolidate firepower, or do they have legitimate concerns over the frightening array of loosely written CCW laws and the increasing availability of weapons?""" The heads of these organizations are frequently anti but the people within aren't. I know. The chief of police in a town is probably more than not an anti gun person. The reason being is that the politicians that promote these people will mostly likely only put into that position a person of the same conviction. The vast number of police or members though are pro gun. That's just plain the truth and comes from one that's been there. The head seldom reflects the opinion of his subordinates.

Kurt wrote: """I don't question that the majority of gun owners no doubt are responsible and conscientious. It's the minority that worry me"""
So what are we going to do, take away our rights because of the minority? And yes the minority scare me too and they aren't the ones that are going to go for concealed carry laws because they can't legally own a gun anwway!!!! Do you think for one second that any gang member in this country can get a concealed carry permit? Somewhere along the line you have to make a sincere differentation between the rights of law abiding citizens and the rights of criminals. It's not fair to take away our rights because of the behavior of criminals.

Suppose we use your logic when it comes to cars. There are those people that insist on driving drunk and they kill people. Many of them can't and don't have a valid drivers license. But because people are killed by drunk drivers I know that we can eliminate the killing of innocent people by outlawing the use of cars. We will ban all cars. Then no one can kill them. In addition statistics show that the peak for safe drivers is around 55 years of age. So let's thing about taking away the right to drive for those older than 55. If this logic sound foolish, it's because it is. But this is essentiall what so many people do with guns.

One more thought. If and I think it will probably happen that guns will be eventually outlawed. I will guarantee you that a new business will be established in the form of an illegal market for guns just like the drugs. The only problem will be that the only one dealing in guns will be the criminals. And as every business goes, this one would grow and eventually I'm confident that it would include military weapons. Weapons far more dangerous than what our criminals have now.

Well that is my answer to you. If you ever took the time to be honestly involved in a gun club and get into organized competitive shooting you would come away with a completely different opinion of guns. And if you did and get good enough to compete at the Nationals in Camp Perry, you would be amazed at the people and their professionalism. And your image of the typical American gun owner would be forever changed. You typical view of an American gun owner would become one of them being the exception.

thanks for the time you take to read this

Dennis

I hope those like Kilroi1 who worry about the extremely small risk of a bear attack will gather a some information before planning to use their concealed handguns to defend themselves against a bear. If you're really concerned about a bear attack, here are two suggestions: (1) educate yourself about proper outdoor behavior to avoid most problems with bears in the first place; (2) keep your handgun in a safe place and carry and know how to use bear pepper spray for the rare cases when defensive measures are needed.

An excellent summary of the subject is found in a U.S. Fish and Wildlife article, "Bear Spray vs. Bullets - Which Offers Better Protection?" The full text is found at this link, but here's an excerpt:

If this rule change for guns holds up, it would be both tragic and ironic if it leads to people being killed or injured in an extremely rare bear attack, simply because they used a handgun in a situation where it is not the safe or appropriate response. Are some people counting on a handgun to keep them safe from a bear attack? Read the previous comments on this site for the answer.

WOW! I did not know the thousands of local,state and federal agent's and police officers,who usually have more than one firearm in the home,have such high rates of shooting accidents, suicides and homicides in thier homes. Being raised in the home of a peace officer,I am suprised that my family and I are still around in light of the Brady info.

Victory for Human Rights! We can now carry in National Parks legally.

Hooray!

I carry a weapon in my fanny pack each time I take my kids hiking. Pragmatically, it is impossible for the NPS people to protect me and my children. I'll continue to do so and when we pass each other on the trail you'll see nothing but a big smile and a 'how ya doin' from me and the kids. You won't have any reason to fear me or feel threatened.

I think it is obvious that the Coalition of National Park Service Retirees is implying that they know better than the rest of us concerning the impact of concealed carry in National Parks when they joined the Brady Campaign to sue the government for allowing concealed weapons on federal parks. Indeed, the Coalition of National Park Service Retirees makes only vague references to environmental impact and human safety, but they haven't produced any studies. As a former law enforcement officer, I can attest with confidence that armed citizens are safer and more responsible than those who would deny them their right to bear arms, I could also suggest that the leadership of the Coalition of National Park Service Retirees review the statistics in the National Institute of Justice, Bureau of Justice Statistics if they have concerns about law abiding armed citizens on public property and around animals. Illegal users of firearms and criminal behavior against persons and property in National Parks is nothing new and should be the only issue here, that is why law abiding citizens should be able to readily defend themselves. Perhaps addressing the issue of crime should be a greater concern of the Coalition of National Park Service Retirees, than pushing a non-scientific political agenda.

Why should our 2nd Amendment rights suddenly be stripped once we step foot into a national park? I wish everyone entering the national parks was highly trained in the use of personal protection firearms and had passed FBI background checks. Then, I wish it was well known that qualified people were legally carrying guns in national parks. I am being serious. That would deter criminals from preying on people because they would have to assume everyone was armed.
Thanks for reading.

Bill