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Traveler's View: Concealed Weapons Have No Place In Our National Park System

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Editor's note: The public comment period on the Interior Department's proposal to allow national park visitors to carry concealed weapons runs through June. If you haven't already commented, please consider doing so at this site before the deadline. This is a high profile, emotionally and politically charged issue, one that figures to affect all visitors to our national parks. Don't let it be decided without your voice. What follows is the Traveler's position on this proposal.

Dear Secretary Kempthorne,

There are many fine centennial projects under way, and proposed, to help the National Park Service prepare itself and the 391 units of the National Park System for the agency's centennial in 2016. Hopefully there will be many more in place before that celebration arrives.

While there are many concerns about the risks of commercializing the parks along the way to 2016, so far things seem to be under control. Except, that is, for one glaring example that could bring the likes of Smith & Wesson, Glock, SIG and other brands of handguns into our National Park System.

Mr. Secretary, forgive those of us who might think the National Rifle Association's full-court press to see the National Park Service's gun regulations tossed out the window is its version of a centennial project. I'm sure it's merely a timing thing -- the NRA's election-year gambit pitted against your Centennial Initiative.

National Parks Do Not Have a Crime Problem

Joking aside, Mr. Secretary, there simply is no need to change the current gun regulations for our national parks. The National Park System is not crime-ridden. Far and away, the majority of the hundreds of millions of visitors who entered some unit of the National Park System last year did not place their lives in danger from other park visitors nor from wild animals when they did so. You can look it up. I did. This is what I found:

While even one murder is too many, the crime statistics for a park system that attracts more visitors than Major League Baseball, the National Football League, professional basketball, soccer
and NASCAR combined would seem to indicate that parks are relatively safe havens from violent crime.

During 2006, when 273 million park visits were tallied, there were 11 criminal deaths across the system. Two involved women who were pushed off cliffs (one at Pictured Rocks National Lakeshore and one at Lake Mead National Recreation Area), one was a suicide (at Golden Gate National Recreation Area), and one was the victim of a DUI accident (in Yellowstone National Park).

National Park Service records also show that one of the 11 deaths, reported in Great Smoky Mountains National Park, involved a stabbing that was spawned by an alcohol-fueled altercation. Great Smoky also was the setting of a fatal shooting of another woman; three people were arrested for this crime.

The suicide at Golden Gate involved a man who "began shooting at hang gliders. He did not hit any of the hang gliders, but then he shot a stranger. Then he turned the gun on himself."

At the Blue Ridge Parkway, a woman parked at an overlook and wearing headphones while studying for final exams "was killed by a handgun by a suspect on a killing spree," the Park Service said. In another case involving the parkway, the body of an individual shot and killed outside the parkway was dumped there.

At Amistad National Recreation Area, a woman was found floating in a reservoir in about 5 feet of water. "She appeared to have blunt force trauma to the head and was possibly stabbed," the agency said.

The last two murders were reported in Washington, D.C., area park units. In one case a victim died from a gunshot wound to the head, in the other, U.S. Park Police found a partial human skull, with an apparent gunshot wound, on the shoreline of the Anacostia River. This crime didn't necessarily occur in the park system.

Most folks, I think, would agree that the suicide, two pushing victims, and the DUI victim couldn't have been prevented if guns were allowed to be carried in the national parks. And, of course, there was the victim who was murdered outside the Blue Ridge Parkway. That lowers to six the number of violent deaths investigated in the parks, one of which involved a stabbing in a drunken brawl, an outcome that could have turned out just the same -- or worse-- if either individual was carrying a gun.

During 2006 there also were 320 assaults without weapons, 1,950 weapons offenses, 843 public intoxication cases, and 5,752 liquor law violations. How many of those might have turned deadly were concealed carry allowed in the park system?

Last year, 2007, the numbers fell lower. There were nine criminal deaths across the park system, 1,495 weapons offenses, and 974 public intoxication cases.

Mr. Secretary, before you opt to change the current restrictions, consider the input from your National Park Service professionals, both those in Washington and those spread across the National Park System. After all, the agency is not calling for this change that would allow visitors to carry concealed weapons at the ready, nor is the Ranger Lodge of the Fraternal Order of Police, nor is the Association of National Park Rangers.

More so, all seven living former National Park Service directors (appointed, by the way, by presidents of both parties) are on record saying this proposed change is unnecessary (see attachment).

Why is the NRA Pushing For Armed Visitors in the Parks?

So why is it necessary to rewrite regulations that already allow gun owners to transport their weapons through our parks? True, those regulations require that the weapons be unloaded, broken down, and stored out of easy reach, but is that unreasonable? From here it seems as if only the self-righteous NRA, ever anxious to boost its membership, feels that the only safe national park is one where the visitors are armed and ready.

So anxious is the NRA to see this change that it changes its stance when the circumstances dictate. For instance, the NRA freely admits that it "initiated and worked closely" with U.S. Sen. Mike Crapo, R-Idaho, on a letter the senator sent to you asking for concealed carry to be the lay of the federal landscape. A portion of that letter claims that inconsistencies between state and federal gun laws are "confusing, burdensome, and unnecessary." And yet, NRA spokeswoman Ashley Varner, told the Smoky Mountain News that rangers in parks that touch multiple states shouldn't have trouble keeping track of varying laws.

“I think that’s a bogus argument,” she told the newspaper. “Our park rangers know the laws. They are fully capable of understanding where they are within the forest.” (Judging from Ms. Varner's choice of words, could it be that the NRA doesn’t know the difference between the national forests and the national parks?)

So, on one hand the NRA says those who are permitted to carry concealed weapons are confused by the current laws, and yet if rangers are required to memorize more than one set of gun laws and all their intricacies and nuances that's not a problem.

Is the NRA implying that gun owners aren't capable of understanding when they leave state lands and enter national parks?

Allowed Concealed Carry in the Parks Will Complicate, Not Simplify, Matters

Mr. Secretary, since at least 1936 (earlier gun prohibitions were instituted at many individual parks, as the attached file shows) it's been clear that visitors are not allowed to carry weapons in national parks, unless that park allows hunting, of which there are relatively few. But under the proposal you are endorsing, concealed carry in the parks would depend on myriad state laws, some of which carry quite a few nuances. Scan the laws out there and you can certainly see where your proposal would make for a much, much more confusing landscape than currently exists in the National Park System.

Jim Burnett, a commissioned law enforcement officer during much of his 30-year Park Service career, discovered the significant challenge that exists for sorting out all of those conflicting regulations. Here's a sampling of his findings:

The State of Wyoming Attorney General's website sums up this problem: "It is extremely important for all concealed firearm permit holders to be aware of the requirements and laws of all reciprocating states. The permit issued by your state does not supersede any other state’s laws or regulations. Legal conduct in your state may not be legal in the state you are visiting."

The State of Florida website on concealed weapons permits notes, "The Division of Licensing constantly monitors changing gun laws in other states and attempts to negotiate agreements as the laws in those states allow." Even if someone took time to sort out the concealed weapons laws of all the states he'd be visiting, some of those laws may have changed recently, so the process has to be repeated before every trip.

Here's only one example of the problem: Florida has reciprocal agreements to honor concealed weapons permits with only 32 of the 50 states. Visit the other 18 and you're out of luck, so don't forget to lock up your gun when you cross the state line. To make matters worse, Florida's official website notes seven different exceptions to those agreements, so even among the 32 states with agreements, guidelines vary. Are you a resident or non-resident? Are you over the age of 18 but under 21? Are you from Vermont, which doesn't even require a concealed weapons permit? (Sorry, you can't "carry" in Florida under the reciprocal agreement guidelines, since Florida can't "reciprocate" if a permit doesn't exist in the first place.) The list of exceptions goes on.

So, Mr. Secretary, not only will rangers have to be knowledgeable about federal laws, but also the laws of the states that their parks fall within. And then, of course, there are the parks -- Yellowstone, Great Smoky, Death Valley, and the Blue Ridge Parkway just for example, as there are several more -- that span more than one state. As a result, rangers will not only have to be schooled on those states' gun laws but also, presumably, carry a GPS unit so they know in which state they're in when they're in the backcountry so they'll know which set of laws to apply to armed backcountry travelers.

Professional law enforcement rangers, at least, are trained to pay attention to jurisdiction and legal authorities; can we reasonably expect the average visitor to do the same?

2nd Amendment Rights Are Not in Jeopardy Under the Existing Guidelines

Mr. Secretary, in arguing for this change of regulations, the NRA and more than a few of its members would have you believe that their 2nd Amendment rights are being trampled by the national park regulations. Really, Mr. Secretary, this isn't a 2nd Amendment issue. No one is trying to deny folks the right to carry arms, although you couldn't tell that by listening to the NRA. Nor are you denying that weapons can be prohibited in federal buildings, or that states – if they choose – can decide to prohibit them in the national parks within their states.

So this isn’t a 2nd amendment issue. If it’s anything, it’s a states rights issue. But where in federal law does it say that the states should make decisions about how national parks are managed? In fact, the law says quite the opposite:

16 US Code 1-1a says that the National Park Service (not the states) “shall promote and regulate the use of the Federal areas known as national parks.”

Why did this issue crop up now, 2008? Could it be because this is an election year, one that not only has members of Congress up for re-election but also the president's office? Could it be that the NRA is trying to use guns in the parks as a wedge issue, to force politicians to kowtow to the almighty weapon to be re-elected?

What should be at issue here is some sanity and reasonableness. Just as the 1st Amendment carries restrictions concerning where you can voice your right to free speech -- after all, there are prohibitions against inciting violence and yelling "Fire!!" in a crowded theater -- there are and should be reasonable restrictions as to where you can carry your gun, if you choose to carry one at all.

Statistics Show More Guns Are Not the Answer

Mr. Secretary, more and more it seems that as gun violence escalates the NRA believes the only answer is to respond with more guns. Seemingly, we live in a gun-crazed society. If the NRA isn't evidence of that, just look at the publicity surrounding the release of Grand Theft Auto IV, one of the more controversial video games that actually awards points for murder.

Or, look at the statistics. According to a 1994 study performed for the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, the United States "has by far the highest rate of gun deaths -- murders, suicides and accidents -- among the world's 36 richest nations ... The U.S. rate for gun deaths in 1994 was 14.24 per 100,000 people. Japan had the lowest rate, at .05 per 100,000."

In response to those statistics a Johns Hopkins University researcher who specialized in gun violence remarked that, "If you have a country saturated with guns -- available to people when they are intoxicated, angry or depressed -- it's not unusual guns will be used more often. ... This has to be treated as a public health emergency.''

The statistics point to just such an emergency, Mr. Secretary. Here are some sobering numbers, from the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence:

Gun Deaths and Injury - The United States Leads the World in Firearm Violence

• In 2004, 29,569 people in the United States died from firearm-related deaths – 11,624
(39%) of those were murdered; 16,750 (57%) were suicides; 649 (2.2%) were accidents;
and in 235 (.8%) the intent was unknown. In comparison, 33,651 Americans were
killed in the Korean War and 58,193 Americans were killed in the Vietnam War.

• For every firearm fatality in the United States in 2005, there were estimated to be more
than two non-fatal firearm injuries.

• In 2004, firearms were used to murder 56 people in Australia, 184 people in Canada, 73
people in England and Wales, 5 people in New Zealand, and 37 people in Sweden. In
comparison, firearms were used to murder 11,624 people in the United States.

• In 2005, there were only 143 justifiable homicides by private citizens using handguns in
the United States.

Mr. Secretary, as you well know national parks are widely popular backdrops for family vacations. During the summer vacation months the sounds of laughing and giggling children can be heard throughout the park system as they run and play. Do you also know that more children and teens died died as the result of gun violence in the United States in 2003 than all the U.S. military deaths in Iraq from 2003 to 2006? If we can’t prevent such tragedies in America, can we not at least try to keep the national parks as sanctuaries from such violence to the degree possible?

Mr. Secretary, it seems you want to make it even easier to carry guns in America in general and our national parks specifically.

Here are some more statistics compiled by the Brady Campaign that point to the flawed logic that an armed America is a safer America. In fact, looking at these numbers, an argument could be made that arming more Americans with more weapons isn't decreasing murders but is leading to more suicides, accidental deaths, and accidental shootings. Plus, as the Brady Campaign points out, more and more youth are being killed because of our gun culture:

Gun Violence - Young Lives Cut Short

• In 2004, nearly 8 children and teenagers, ages 19 and under, were killed with guns
every day. (My emphasis)

• In 2004, firearm homicide was the second-leading cause of injury death for men and
women 10-24 years of age - second only to motor vehicle crashes.

* In 2004, firearm homicide was the leading cause of death for black males ages 15-34.

• From 1999 through 2004, an average of 916 children and teenagers took their own lives
with guns each year.

* Each year during 1993 through 1997, an average of 1,621 murderers who had not
reached their 18th birthdays took someone's life with a gun.

Mr. Secretary, you claim that, “The safety and protection of park and refuge visitors remains a top priority for the Department of the Interior,” and that the proposed revisions are intended to make gun regulations in the parks more consistent with state laws. On that second point, about making the national parks more consistent with state laws, should we also make them more consistent in terms of logging, and mining, and hunting? Why have a national park system if the goal is to diminish the parks distinctiveness from other places? That too, seems to violate Congress’ clear intent, codified again in 16 US Code 1a-1:

Congress declares that the national park system, which began with establishment of Yellowstone National Park in 1872, has since grown to include superlative natural, historic, and recreation areas in every major region of the United States, its territories and island possessions; that these areas, though distinct in character, are united through their inter-related purposes and resources into one national park system as cumulative expressions of a single national heritage; that, individually and collectively, these areas derive increased national dignity and recognition of their superb environmental quality through their inclusion jointly with each other in one national park system preserved and managed for the benefit and inspiration of all the people of the United States…


Will More Guns Really Make the National Parks Safer?

Mr. Secretary, will allowing concealed carry in the parks give parents peace of mind when they put their children down for the night in campgrounds where those in the next site might have a weapon? Will it make it safer for visitors riding on shuttle buses if many of their fellow riders are armed? Will it make it safer for rangers responding to drunken fights in campgrounds? Will you require concessionaires to install gun lockers in their lodges? Will restaurant and convenience store patrons have to check their weapons at the door? Will it be OK to knock down a couple shots of Jack Daniels and chase it with a beer at the Bear Pit Lounge in the Old Faithful Inn while you're packing?

Mr. Secretary, many gun owners are quick to proclaim that they are as skilled and tested as Park Service law enforcement rangers when it comes to handling guns. Is that so?

As I understand it, the intensive training program for law enforcement rangers is 18 weeks long. Then, once the ranger completes their basic law enforcement training at the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center their next stop, after a short break at their home park, is to report to a field training park for an additional 10 weeks of mentored, hands-on experience. The Field Training Officers are experienced rangers who are specifically trained to provide field training. They are with the trainees in the field, but the trainees make all the law enforcement contacts while the training officers serve as observers, back-up, and evaluators.

Mr. Secretary, if violence breaks out in a national park, whether in the backcountry or the front country, are you comfortable with the possibility that some park visitor, armed with a Smith & Wesson or a Glock, will either try to bring things under control on their own or rush to the aid of a ranger, who then will be in the uncomfortable position of having to decide in an eye-blink who can be trusted with a firearm and who can't be?

What, Mr. Secretary, would you tell international visitors, many whose home countries have extremely stringent gun laws, to make them feel safe in our parks if concealed carry is permitted? Should you sign off on this change, how would you explain it to visitors to Waterton/Glacier International Peace Park?

Mr. Secretary, don't you think that as we move towards the National Park Service’s centennial in 2016 one thing we should strive to do is use the national parks to instill in visitors not just a feeling of safety, that they’ve entered sanctuaries, but to convince tomorrow’s generations that they don’t need to arm themselves to feel safe?

Mr. Secretary, can you honestly say, after considering all the facts and after closing your eyes and ears to all the political pandering, that increasing the number of loaded weapons in our parks is a good idea? I urge you to reconsider. Stand up to the NRA and for the national parks.

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Comments

Rick Smith snipes stereotypically

> Needless to say, NPT will lose a few NRA member readers whose single-minded emphasis on carrying weapons into almost any place in our country
> is not only tiresome, but also dangerous.

This is the same lame, tiresome, baseless, mythological perpetuation that makes the gun grabbers look as clueless as they really are. I'll say this until you are blue in the face: give me one example of a citizen with a concealed carry permit who has committed a violent crime in your sacred national park system - or any place in our country. You can't do it. If you choose to impugn citizens who refuse to relinquish a natural and Constitutionally protected right that's your business. You'll suffer the consequences of your ignorance. I can provide many instances where citizens with guns have PREVENTED crimes. That's the fact not emotional touchy-feely, self-aggrandizement.

As for this silly perpetual allusion that parks are safe or "relatively" crime-free. Well, yeah, there are only a "few" murders" or there's only just a few thousand assaults, robberies or rapes, so I guess it's really a minuscule "statistic" unless YOU ARE one of the statistics. Your Pollyanna-like naiveté is single-minded, snooty, and devoid of reality. If you're the one in a million who gets struck by lightning it hurts. It's only a one-in-a-million chance but you were lucky enough to provide the ground for the charge. If your wife is enjoyable prey for a goofy rapist I guess you're still justified in retaining intellectual integrity in your moral stand against those nasty, icky guns that all the NRA wackos are obsessed with.

I'm just curious, Rick, but I didn't notice anything in your post, or those of others, that hinted at concern that one or more of the travelers in the park system you encounter might be a criminal carrying a gun. Or whether outside of the parks someone in your town might be a criminal with a gun. No, you take the moral high ground and bravely take a stand against a Constitutionally guaranteed right rather than place the blame where it belongs - with the criminals who commit the crimes.


I always find it ironic that pro-gun people say the gun control crowd has been duped/misled/confused of the truth by the Brady Campaign, when the pro-gun people have been 'duped' just as much by the NRA....


Rick - you say, "I'll say this until you are blue in the face: give me one example of a citizen with a concealed carry permit who has committed a violent crime in your sacred national park system - or any place in our country."

I say, give me one example of a citizen with a concealed carry permit who has averted a violent crime in our sacred national park system...

Bill Wade
Chair, Executive Council
Coalition of National Park Service Retirees


Bill says,

> I say, give me one example of a citizen with a concealed carry permit who has averted a violent crime in our sacred national park system...

Based on media biases, since I never see anything about citizens defending themselves more than a million times each year outside of the parks I don't expect to see it when it actually does happen within the parks. All I see is the continuous commission of crimes within the park system. Why aren't you out there preventing some of these crimes, Bill? Oh, that's right, the courts absolved you of any responsibility by declaring "law enforcement" have no obligation to protect. You only have to investigate the victims when the crimes have occurred. That's reassuring to the victims.

You still haven't answered my question which is at the hear of this issue: whether concealed carry permit holders have or will cause problems. Even the lowest estimate of defensive gun use is somewhere around 500,000 per year. That's a lot of people who weren't victimized by a criminal - because you weren't there to protect them - by utilizing a firearm.


Rangertoo wrote: Not all parks are wild natural areas. Do we really want guns in Lincoln's Home or at Kennedy Birthplace?

Evidently, you haven't been paying attention to what this proposed amendment to the CFR would actually do, to wit permit concealed carry (and only concealed carry) by citizens in jurisdictions where they are licensed to do so. Lincoln's Home is in Illinois, where state law prohibits concealed carry entirely; Kennedy's Birthplace is in Massachusetts, where you need a Class B License To Carry to even own a handgun, and Class A LTCs (required to legally carry a handgun concealed) are about as rare and hens' teeth (and practically never issued to non-residents of the Commonwealth). In other words, you're objecting to the proposed amendment on the basis of something the proposed amendment wouldn't allow in the first place.

Kurt wrote: Will it make it safer for rangers responding to drunken fights in campgrounds? [...] Will it be OK to knock down a couple shots of Jack Daniels and chase it with a beer at the Bear Pit Lounge in the Old Faithful Inn while you're packing?

This kind of rhetoric is akin to the "argument" that we shouldn't legalize marijuana because that would remove all safeguards against motorists, surgeons, air traffic controllers, et al. performing their activities while stoned. This is, of course, nonsense. It is perfectly possible to legalize the possession and use of a substance in general, while prohibiting performing certain activities while being under its influence; we need look no further than alcohol. In my own state of Washington, it is illegal to operate a motor vehicle while "under the influence," i.e. having a BAC of 0.8% or over, or being affected by any drug. It is also illegal--except in one's home or place of business--for a person to be in possession of a firearm while "under the influence"; moreover, such an offense will result in the revocation of one's Concealed Pistol License and, if a court so orders, the forfeiture of all one's firearms. It's also illegal to possess a firearm in any establishment, or section of an establishment, declared by the state Liquor Control Board to be off-limits to persons aged under 21 (i.e. bars and bar areas of restaurants), regardless of whether one is actually consuming alcohol. The overwhelming majority of gun owners whom I know are well aware of this, and make sure their firearms are all securely locked away before they start on their first drink, and that includes people who don't live in Washington. The type of gun owner who would get drunk (and belligerent) while keeping a firearm readily accessible is the kind who is so irresponsible that he would probably ignore the current restrictions on firearms in National Parks anyway.

Of course you may argue that making a certain act illegal does not physically prevent someone from committing it anyway. The fact that brandishing, aggravated assault and homicide are illegal cannot prevent someone with a firearm from using the weapon to commit such acts. By the same token, the existence of DUI laws cannot prevent someone with access to alcoholic beverages and a motor vehicle from driving while intoxicated. According to MADD, "over 1.46 million drivers were arrested in 2006 for driving under the influence of alcohol or narcotics [...] an arrest rate of 1 for every 139 licensed drivers in the United States," and "in 2002, 2.3% of Americans 18 and older surveyed reported alcohol-impaired driving." While not wanting to downplay those figures, and acknowledging that the incidence of driving under the influence is almost certainly larger than those statistics reflect, the fact is that in spite of there being no way to physically prevent everyone from driving while intoxicated, the overwhelming majority of American motorists do not do so. Evidently, we can rely on the overwhelming majority of citizens to obey the law, even when they have the means and opportunity to break it.

As things stand, persons licensed to carry a concealed handgun can legally do so in National Forests and on BLM-administered public lands. Thus, we should have data available from which we can predict the likelihood of CCW permit holders misbehaving in National Parks and Wildlife Refuges; that is, if there is a significant problem with CCW permit holders getting drunk, picking fights and pulling guns at campgrounds on these federally administered lands, there should presumably be some documentation to that effect. Indeed, we would hope (were this the case) that the USFS and BLM would be agitating to impose restrictions on firearms on the lands under their care similar to those that currently apply to National Parks and Wildlife Refuges, right? Personally, I have been unable to find any evidence that any of this is the case. While there have been some problems with people wielding and/or discharging firearms in National Forests and on BLM lands, these are often more a case of gross inconsideration rather than imminent threat to life or limb, and more to the point, there's no evidence that the gun owners involved were CCW permit holders wielding only concealable firearms.

I'm willing to be proven wrong on this point: if you can present evidence that CCW holders frequently misbehave in a manner that forms a threat to life and limb of both wildlife and other humans in National Forests and on BLM-administered lands, I'm willing to concede that permitting state-licensed concealed carry in National Parks and Wildlife Refuges may present an unacceptable risk. But I don't think such evidence exists, not in the least place because acquiring a CCW permit typically involves submitting your fingerprints to the FBI (by way of your state or local law enforcement agency) for the purpose of conducting a criminal background check. I'll repeat that: if you have a CCW permit, you know your fingerprints are in a national criminal intelligence database, and in the event that you commit a criminal offense, you can be more readily identified by forensic research than the average citizen. As a result, people who consider themselves likely to violate the law (e.g. by being drunk and disorderly and committing assault, especially with a firearm) do not typically apply for CCW permits.

Moreover, given that apparently drunken brawls do occur in National Parks, and that as a result people are hurt even in the absence of firearms, is this not a stronger argument for prohibiting alcohol in National Parks than for prohibiting firearms? Mind you, it's entirely likely that the people you can most reliably expect to follow a prohibition on alcohol (aside from non-drinkers) are the ones who don't get fighting drunk or litter empty containers in the first place.

Kurt Wrote: Really, Mr. Secretary, this isn't a 2nd Amendment issue. No one is trying to deny folks the right to carry arms, [...]

Actually, at least one person is, to wit yourself. At some point in your commentary you point out that current regulations permit the transportation of firearms--unloaded, inoperable and not readily accessible--so apparently you understand that there is a legal distinction between transporting a firearm and carrying one. In legal terms, to carry a firearm it must be operable and on one's person. So when you subsequently seem to fail to understand the distinction, are you being ignorant, or merely disingenuous?

Kurt wrote: Mr. Secretary, many gun owners are quick to proclaim that they are as skilled and tested as Park Service law enforcement rangers when it comes to handling guns. Is that so?

As I understand it, the intensive training program for law enforcement rangers is 18 weeks long. Then, once the ranger completes their basic law enforcement training at the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center their next stop, after a short break at their home park, is to report to a field training park for an additional 10 weeks of mentored, hands-on experience.

Sure, but that covers training in all the skills required to be a law enforcement officer, including classroom in instruction in local, state and federal law, interview techniques, search and seizure procedures, how to write reports and maintain evidence chain of custody, etc. etc. Only a small part of the 18 weeks of academy training is spent on instruction on firearms handling and justifiable use of force. Moreover, the margins of when use of force (deadly or otherwise) is justifiable are wider for law enforcement personnel than they are for private citizens. Private citizens are not expected to execute search and arrest warrants, or to rush towards the sound of gunfire, as law enforcement officers are. Unlike law enforcement officers, private citizens are legally justified in using deadly force only to forestall an imminent threat of death or grievous bodily harm to themselves or others as a result of unlawful activity. Because the criteria for justifiable use of deadly force by private citizens are so much narrower than for LEOs, less instruction is necessary. Nevertheless, many gun owners, especially those who opt to carry a concealed firearm in public, choose to voluntarily undergo more training than they are required to by statute, witness the roaring trade done by such private firearms training facilities as the Lethal Force Institute in New Hampshire, the Firearms Academy of Seattle in Washington, the Valhalla Training Center in Colorado, Thunder Ranch in Oregon and Gunsite in Arizona, to name a few of the major ones. All of these schools were founded by (current or former) law enforcement personnel, and/or have law enforcement personnel on their staff as instructors.

It's worth noting that research indicates that shootings in which the shooter mistakenly, but without malicious intent, kills an innocent person ("I though he was drawing a gun but it turned out to be a wallet"-type scenarios) occur significantly more frequently with LEOs than they do with private citizens, both in absolute numbers and as a percentage of shooting incidents. This is not because police are reckless or incompetent, but reflects the fact that it is part of their job to seek out and confront people who may prove violent.


Bill Wade wrote: I say, give me one example of a citizen with a concealed carry permit who has averted a violent crime in our sacred national park system...

That smells suspiciously like shifting the burden of proof. Kurt has argued against proposed amendment to the CFR by asserting that there is a risk (and he implies it is a large one) of CCW permit holders using their weapons to commit unlawful acts. Without evidence, however, this is merely an unsupported assertion and to quote Christopher Hitchens, "what can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence." Statistics indicate that CCW permit holders are one-fifth (or less) as likely to commit a violent offense as the general population (and comparatively even less likely to commit a non-violent offense). Unless there is something unique about National Forests that would somehow cause a CCW permit holder to suddenly deviate from this pattern (and if there is, I'd like to know what), Kurt's fears do not appear to have much basis in reality.

The main problem with demanding such an example, however, is that it is not likely to be documented. If a CCW permit holder averted a violent crime in a National Park without using a concealed carry firearm to do so, why would it be documented that the person in question was a CCW permit holder? The germane question, presumably, is whether there are documented examples of CCW permit holders using their concealed carry weapons to avert a violent crime. The rub is, of course, that concealed carry is currently illegal in National Parks; thus, an absence of such examples may simply be the result of CCW permit holders obeying the law. You simply can't reasonably assert that CCW permit holders wouldn't do any good because they have failed to do so thus far, when doing so would, at this point, require them to have broken the law first. And if such an example could be found, I have little doubt you'd gleefully seize upon the fact that CCW permit holder was carrying illegally in a National Park as evidence that all CCW permit holders are scofflaws. It's a "heads I win, tails you lose" scenario.


Jurjen,

I think the statistics -- no matter whose you choose to use -- speak for themselves. The more guns in circulation, the more folks get shot, whether intentionally or accidentally, whether by criminals or by guns owned by any legal gun owner, whether they hold a CCW permit or not.

Again, the point I've tried to make in this post and in comments to others is that the concern doesn't necessarily revolve around the "responsible" gun owner, but more so the irresponsible, of which statistics seem to indicate there are plenty.

The official bestowing of a CCW permit doesn't necessarily carry with it all the wisdom, patience, and judgment that you and other gun proponents would have everyone believe. Wouldn't it seem reasonable that the fact that there are so many varying state laws pertaining to guns and what one must do to obtain a CCW permit (or for states to grant reciprocity) is evidence that there are many different views of who exactly is a competent gun owner?

And through this entire debate no one has answered a question raised long ago: If "concealed carry" is allowed in the parks, where will you pack your weapon? If it's to be "concealed" and it's a warm-weather month, wouldn't that necessitate that the weapon be placed in a pack? And if that's the case, how quickly can you reach that weapon in time of need?

As to your contention that a CCW holder wouldn't admit to averting a violent crime because they would themselves be admitted to committing a crime, well, other CCW holders have commented on this site either directly or through implication that they would willing pay a fine if their actions prevented a crime.


Adding guns to the National Parks is complete contrary to the concept of the parks being a sanctuary. Guns kill, people with guns murder. Allowing guns in parks will only increase the likelyhood of some idiot killing the very animals protected by the sanctuary of the Natioanl Parks. It is time that the NRA woke up and realized that yes we do have gun rights, but not everywhere and not in all situations. Gun limits are not gun restrictions, just laws and guidelines to protect others from illegal gun use. NO! NO! NO to guns in the National Park. Do I need to be worried about a stray shot killing me as I hike Yellowstone, Crater Lake or Great Smokey?


The Essential RVing Guide

The Essential RVing Guide to the National Parks

The National Parks RVing Guide, aka the Essential RVing Guide To The National Parks, is the definitive guide for RVers seeking information on campgrounds in the National Park System where they can park their rigs. It's available for free for both iPhones and Android models.

This app is packed with RVing specific details on more than 250 campgrounds in more than 70 parks.

You'll also find stories about RVing in the parks, some tips if you've just recently turned into an RVer, and some planning suggestions. A bonus that wasn't in the previous eBook or PDF versions of this guide are feeds of Traveler content: you'll find our latest stories as well as our most recent podcasts just a click away.

So whether you have an iPhone or an Android, download this app and start exploring the campgrounds in the National Park System where you can park your rig.