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Conservation Groups Question Cape Hatteras National Seashore's Preferred ORV Management Plan

Nov 19th - 10:15am | Bernie McCants

Spottail as background I have a 37+ year career in clinical research, have been active in fisheries management at the state level for a number of years and I rely on data and the examination and interpretation of data. I don't make up numbers, e.g.,the association of the Consent Decree with increased Loggerhead nesting.

Nov 19th - 09:43am | Anonymous

The big 3 sued and won because they did have science on their side.

Nov 19th - 09:05am | Dave Vachet

Spottail, You've probably heard the phrase, when you point the finger there are usually a few pointing back at you. To accuse Mr McCants of making up facts, and then present your prose as facts is quite comical! I'm sure we'll see it in a press release soon.

Nov 19th - 07:56am | Spottail

I live on the NC coast, I am an avid fisherman, I fish at Cape Hatteras an average of 40-50 days per year, and I support MORE restrictions on vehicles than presented in the NPS preferred plan. MORE areas should be closed to vehicles year round.

Nov 19th - 07:39am | Anonymous

Karen if you Park at the fish cleaning station and walk over ramp 44 I’m guessing that a straight line shot to the tip of Cape Point is no more than a 1 1/2 miles at most. It is a flat beach and if there are no vehicles using the beach the sand is surprisingly firm. As far as National Parks hikes go it is an easy hike. Hiking is a very popular recreational activity.

Nov 18th - 21:44pm | Bernie McCants

There seems to be a reluctance in the biological opinion to acknowledge that human interaction has historically played a minimal role in the lack of success in plovers and turtles at CAHA. Nesting and chick failure is, by a wide margin, due to weather events and predation. Not even debatable from an objective scientific standpoint.

Nov 18th - 15:34pm | Anonymous

The acronym for the park is CAHA.

Nov 18th - 11:12am | Karen Johnson

Paul, since you live in Va. Beach I would assume you have been out to the point? If you have then you also know it is not likely anyone will be walking or hiking out there on foot. And not due to laziness. I'm not a fisherman, a sportsman, a tailgater or a haul everything you own to the beach type of person.

Nov 18th - 10:16am | Another Anon

Anonymous ... It appears the Park Services has done just. This plan isn't what the environmentalists want, and I know the OBPA and their ilk are apoplectic. It would be real nice if all sides would just stand down and live with this plan for a few years.

Nov 18th - 09:38am | Anonymous

I would prefer that someone (NPS) acted like the adult rather than a neutral observer, set the two sides in a corner and then did what is best for the Park for now and future generations. Hatteras and Ocracoke Islands won't be destroyed and plenty of visitors will enjoy the Seashore and business people will make plenty of money from the people that come to visit the Park.

Reality TV Comes to Everglades National Park. Will It Help With Diversity?

Nov 19th - 10:13am | pkrnger

Reality television is an excellent way to reach out to larger subsets of American culture who do not traditionally visit our national parks, as long as the educational aspects of the show retain quality and integrity.

Nov 19th - 09:52am | Kurt Repanshek

Richard, I believe the difference is that the Everglades subtropical area is an officially designated wilderness, whereas the Atchafalaya Basin is not.

Nov 19th - 04:09am | Richard in Miss...

Thanks for the article. I find it amazing that a huge urban population can ignore such a huge national treasure. I don't know how "subtropical widerness" is defined, but I believe that the Atchafalaya Basin in Louisiana far exceeds the everglades in size. In terms of productivity and biodiversity the Atchafalaya Swamp is the clear winner.

Fish And Wildlife Service Says ORV Plan for Cape Hatteras National Seashore Could Be Helpful to Plovers, Sea Turtles

Nov 19th - 10:03am | matt Stubbs

Close the beaches to all or let the park system sell it off for a profit like the audubon does. I have little patience for (people) who claim one thing and state another. "As far as nesting plovers (along with terns, skimmers, and Oyster Catchers chicks) never having been run over on the beach they don’t know that they haven’t."

Nov 19th - 08:50am | Ryan

Anonymous , yes I am aware that ORV's are a general term and that 4-runners, Jeeps, etc. fall under that umbrella. But that does not detract from my point that ORV's tend to be destructive. I would actually make the case that someone driving a 4-runner on the beach would have the potential to do more damage because of their lack of experience driving off road...just a hypothesis.

Nov 19th - 07:24am | Anonymous

The side that won’t compromise is the ORV side. They believe they are the deciders on what science is junk and what is not. The deciding factor usually being that if it restricts ORV access it is “junk Science”. Yet they decide a dredge spoil site (Cora June) outside of the Park boundary is the cause for the lack of nesting shorebirds in the Park.

Nov 18th - 21:36pm | Anonymous

Ryan - are you aware that ORVs are simply 4WD vehicles? ORV is a misnomer - the Tahoes, 4Runners, and CRVs you see patrolling the urban playgrounds each day are all ORVs, according to the NPS. Each plan should be catered or built around evidence found in a particular area. That's like saying California's state budget should be the same as Delaware's.

Nov 18th - 20:11pm | Jack

Same situation, besides they don't nest near the water where the ORV's travel.

Nov 18th - 19:10pm | Nate

Jack says I've never even come close to hitting a bird, why? Because God gave them wings to escape danger. The issue is not with adult birds. It is with young birds that cannot yet fly.

Nov 18th - 16:54pm | Ryan

I am sure that USFW and NPS employees are interested in passing "junk science" off to the public to put forth their anti-orv agenda...give me a break. ORV's are destructive, in general, and have the potential to be destructive, in general.

Nov 18th - 16:29pm | Jack

I've been driving at CHNRS since early 70's. I've never even come close to hitting a bird, why? Because God gave them wings to escape danger. If the birds were that dumb and vulnerable they would have been extinct thousands of years ago from predators who are much better adapted to catch them. Vehicles are not the problem, if anything they keep the predator numbers down and help the birds.

Nov 18th - 15:45pm | Anonymous

Without documentation you have no real science, just the 'maybe', 'probably', and 'possibly' junk science that is passed off as 'best-available science'. Again, without documentation you have NO science.

Nov 18th - 14:45pm | Kurt Repanshek

Matt, Both Alternative F and the biological opinion address pedestrians, as well as predation. Neither single out ORVs. The rub, no doubt, stems from the fact that this is an "ORV" plan, not an "ORV and Pedestrian" plan or a "Wildlife Protection" plan. As for ghost crabs and plovers, here's what the biological opinion had to say about them:

Nov 18th - 14:34pm | matt Stubbs

As far as the FWS comparing the outside world to the Cape Hatteras World of plovers... Why does Cape Hatteras have 1000 meter buffers and all other locations much less? Answer: The FWS reviewers were evidentally asked only to review Biased Anti orv facts!

Nov 18th - 13:44pm | Kurt Repanshek

Anonymous, We can agree that the USFWS review found no documented cases. But that's not to say there haven't been any instances. As the biological opinion clearly notes, plovers -- adults or chicks -- could easily be run over without the motorist noticing. The following, also from the biological opinion, speaks to the potential for plovers being run over:

Nov 18th - 13:13pm | Anonymous

So we can both agree that there are no documented cases of piping plovers having been run over by vehicles at Cape Hatteras? Your inclusion of this statement in an article about the CAHA ORV Management Plan suggests that piping plovers have been run over at CAHA. To suggest that this has happened, even with your 'in these settings' qualifier, is a disservice to readers.

Nov 18th - 09:52am | Kurt Repanshek

Anonymous, read a bit more of this sentence: Vehicles can, and do, run over piping plovers and their fledglings as well as sea turtle hatchlings and buried nests in these settings...

Nov 18th - 09:38am | Anonymous

Please provide documentation of any case of "Vehicles can, and do, run over piping plovers and their fledglings". To my knowledge, there is no documented case of this happening at CAHA.

Fredericksburg and Spotsylvania National Military Park: An Economic Driver

Nov 19th - 05:34am | Barky

I like the tone of this post, the idea that historical parks are primarily for the recreation of nearby residents. I find this every time I visit one: by actual headcount, the people in these parks are locals jogging, biking, walking their dogs (if allowed). They're not folks like me who drive 1500 miles to view the history, it's folks nearby who need a place to take a run.

Judge Tosses Surprise Canyon Lawsuit

Nov 18th - 21:44pm | Anonymous

I too am a tax payer & I am also a DAV. I am a off-roader & a hiker. BLM land "is a land of many uses". There are several other near-by canyons that are open to off-roaders. I have hiked the canyon & found it very unique. I think even you would enjoy the peace & quite, wild life and scenic surroundings. It is quite a hike, but well worth the effort.

U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service Agrees Whitebark Pine Trees Might Need ESA Protection

Nov 18th - 19:52pm | Anonymous

Also consider the effects of high elevation snowmobiling to young whitebark pines, some cannot be seen under the snow....

Reader Participation Day: What is the Greatest Threat To Our National Parks?

Nov 18th - 18:24pm | Anonymous

I agree with those that have brought forth the issue of relevancy. As the demographics and interests of the American population change, the parks may very well be looked on as being irrelevant. People can't care about what they don't even know about.

Nov 18th - 17:51pm | Anonymous

The insatiable demand for natural resources by a growing population Demographers now forsee a U.S. population of 500 million. Some even toss out the "billion" word. Wood, fiber, minerals, water. The demand will trump preservation values every time. Legislation may be enacted on a park by park basis, but it will eventually occur.

Nov 18th - 17:41pm | justinh

Thanks, Kurt. I'm backpacking through Joshua Tree and Death Valley this winter--be happy to file a report or two. (And thanks so much for the Traveler--it certainly fulfills its mission.)

Nov 18th - 17:21pm | Anonymous

In response to Jerry C and the similarly minded: Most likely trails and campsites are closed due to lack of money and personnel to maintain and oversee them--along with too many thoughtless visitors who wander off the trail and so destroy the landscape.

Nov 18th - 17:13pm | Jon Merryman

Ok, I've finally decided the greatest threat to America's Parks are anonymous posters lobbing unfounded proclamations. Actually, that's the biggest threat to human existence, come to think of it.

Nov 18th - 15:33pm | Anonymous

the biggest danger is the way the parks are ran by the NPS, that is obvious!

Nov 18th - 14:17pm | Kurt Repanshek

Fred and Justin, The key mission of the Traveler is to both educate the public about the national parks, and to nurture advocates for the parks. You can help us with that mission by sharing our site with your friends and contacts, either by pointing out the url or forwarding our weekly e-letter to them.

Nov 18th - 14:13pm | justinh

Fred,

Nov 18th - 13:56pm | Kurt Repanshek

We are indeed the pressure, Andrea. Yellowstone, Cape Hatteras, Yosemite and on and on and on are proof of that. As for superintendents having success with issues such as over-crowding, how well did Mike Finley succeed with that in the Yosemite Valley?

Nov 18th - 13:27pm | Andrea Lankford

Kurt: We are the political pressure. Or at least part of it. And we are overwhelming the NPS with all our myriad of complaints and desires. Regardless, I do believe Superindents have the capability to at least mitigate management issues such as snowmobile use, over crowding, and the like.

Nov 18th - 12:02pm | Fred Fagergren

I agree with this comment about mismanagement or lack of management. I wouldn't limit it to Superintendents although they must hold the foundation of the problems. I cannot help but recall the NPS decision to respond to employees' concerns about poor supervision by providing "required" training courses for all supervisors and leaders.

Nov 18th - 11:24am | Kurt Repanshek

Andrea, A bureaucratic monster has indeed risen up over the parks, just like those around many other government agencies (states included). However, how do you get superintendents at parks such as Yellowstone, Yosemite, the Grand Canyon or Great Smoky to put blinders on to political pressures?

Nov 18th - 10:29am | Andrea Lankford

Greatest threat to the park system as a whole? The sluggishness and waste of a bureaucracy. The cry of GREAT THREATS (on a macro level) to the entire park system will only encourage the bureaucractic monster to waste loads of money trying to fix the unfixable. Superintendents should operate on a micro (one park/problem at a time) level.

Nov 18th - 09:53am | Dave Crowl

Personally I agree with "Barky" I think he summed up my feelings. I also would comment that the buses at Zion are amazing and I did not miss having to find parking at each stop. At Glacier we drove around a parking lot at "Trail of Cedars" for about 20 minutes waiting for someone to leave. But I actually enjoy the bear jams and would miss the photo opportunity if i just rode by in a bus.

Nov 18th - 08:55am | Wayne Koskela

Chains, gates and padlocks.

Rookie Firefighter from Olympic National Park Killed by Falling Tree in California

Nov 18th - 15:56pm | Ryan Shook

I know he did not pass in Vain. I was one of the fire men who was there trying to get him off the hill. Our crew was the first to get to him and we did what we could to get that young man off that hill.

Discovering Grizzlies and Wolves at Yellowstone National Park

Nov 18th - 14:53pm | anonymous

If you do not come from an ag. background, don't talk about ranching. If you are not a geneticist, don't "explain" the genetics. If you don't live near Yellowstone, don't speak about seeing or not seeing how many elk/deer there are. If you have never seen a cow killed by wolves, don't talk about it not mattering.

Nov 18th - 12:17pm | y_p_w

Why do you keep on using the word "specie"? The definition of "specie" is of coin money or something that is of a "like kind". It's also a nonstandard variation on "species", but that frankly wouldn't apply to different variations of wolf species. I'm guessing you're trying to say "subspecies". Or is the use of "specie" deliberate?

Grizzly Bear Shot and Killed By Hikers In Denali National Park and Preserve

Nov 18th - 14:51pm | Sudsy

Being a clerk at a local outfitter in Fairbanks Alaska, I've routinely talked to NPS and Alaskans about the grizzlies in Denali, and indeed the rest of the state. Bear spray and training only go so far, especially if you run into a bear that is 'used' to human contact.

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