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Impetus For Current Move To Raise Fees Across National Park System Dates Back More Than A Decade

Jun 8th - 10:52am | J.Thomas

An interesting discussion. As to whether the NPS should have done another "study" before deciding to raise fees, I don't know what that would cost, but I'd bet a credible survey by a reliable firm to cover users of parks nationwide would run into 6, or more likely, 7 figures. 

Jun 8th - 10:10am | rmackie

Interesting article Kurt, thank you. I am generally opposed to these fee increases. these are public lands and should be supported accordingly. The issue of comparability in setting campground fees is puzzling to me, where would you find this, private sector campgrounds that charge what the market will bear? Is this the direction we want to go in our parks?

Jun 8th - 08:06am | ecbuck

I find it interesting that Ms Kupper says:"There has been no analysis on what may happen. We plan to analyze the trends after the increased rates have been implemented,"But later is quoted saying

Higher Fees Coming To Muir Woods National Monument

Jun 8th - 07:05am | J.Thomas

Lee - Perhaps the following will help answer your question. This previous story on the Traveler reported the court decision that rejected a lawsuit to overturn the backcountry fee at the Smokies.

Jun 8th - 06:46am | J.Thomas

What was requested above was "a link or copy of that record of comments." What was provided in the previous comment wasn't that information, but simply a link to another story on this much-hashed over issue. No helpful information there.

Jun 8th - 06:16am | SmokiesBackpacker

Like the rest of NPS employees your mind has been made up from the get go Dalton. But for others unfamiliar with the track record of fee abuse and subsequent data manipulation so.characteristic of Jarvis cabal, here is your link. /2011/12/hiker-wants-great-smokies-mountain-national-park-divulge-comments-proposed-backcountry-fee9125

Jun 7th - 23:52pm | trailadvocate

Lee, the topic at the time was the Mules in the Canyon.  He wanted to and did for the most part, get rid of them (by 75%) and the 100+ years of a truly American experience.  You know, the poo on the trail sissy thing.  Not fee increases.

Jun 7th - 22:05pm | Lee Dalton

Kurt?  Do you?It's pretty pathetic though, that people who are willing to pay $100+ each month for TV and another $100 for smart phone fees, squawk about a small increase to pay for services they use in parks.Heck, y'pay $10 just to go see a bad movie and almost as much for popcorn and sody pop.I guess it's all in one's priorities.

Jun 7th - 21:45pm | trailadvocate

Yes, Martin did the same thing at GRCA with the public comments during his tenure as Superintendent.  Kurt has them on file, I believe.

Jun 7th - 19:51pm | ecbuck

How funny. Lee wants someone to substantiate their claim after he has done nothing but run when asked to do the same. 

Jun 7th - 19:36pm | Lee Dalton

Smokies, can you provide a link or copy of that record of comments?  Let the rest of us see it.  Then we can decide for ourselves who is right.

Jun 7th - 18:35pm | SmokiesBackpacker

Wild Places,

Jun 6th - 13:22pm | wild places

Discriminating Explorer: Kalispell, Montana, Gateway To Glacier National Park

Jun 8th - 06:05am | Rebecca Latson ...

Great article! Kalispell has grown so much since I lived in nearby Columbia Falls, eons ago.  I vowed to myself if I ever decided to move back to Montana, Kalispell would be the place I'd go to live. It's a nice-sized town near the edge of Glacier National Park, with (now) plenty to do, and a little less expensive than nearby Whitefish.

Bison Gores, Tosses Australian Visitor Several Times At Yellowstone National Park

Jun 7th - 14:09pm | Rick B.

Love the Kirby article.

Jun 7th - 11:42am | Lee Dalton

Here is an entertaining take on this story by Bob Kirby, the Salt Lake Tribune's most thoughtful ;-} editorialist: last paragraph summarizes the whole issue very well.

Jun 6th - 14:58pm | ecbuck

Anyone have an outfitter recommendation at Yellowstone to take my 6 year old granddaughter on a trail ride?  Found a 1 hr ride by Flying Pig Rafting in Gardiner but I don't know anything about them. 

Maine's Second Congressional District Favors National Park For North Woods

Jun 7th - 13:54pm | Megaera

May we please fund our existing parks appropriately before we add any more?  Please?

President Obama Proposing Wilderness, Wild And Scenic River Designations For Arctic National Wildlife Refuge

Jun 7th - 09:30am | Lee Dalton

But the view from the hilltop is so much better than what you get from under a bridge.

Jun 6th - 20:29pm | ecbuck

I don't know why Gary is worried about manufacturing in the US.  Between you, Lee and Gary there is more fabrication going on in this country than ever.  You all manufacture  broad claims and accusations but when asked to back them up, you head for the hills. 

Jun 6th - 20:04pm | Rick B.

Have a nice day, Eric.

Jun 6th - 19:58pm | ecbuck

And had your own unique interpretation. Oh but then you are smarter than the folks at NBC, CNBC and Newsweek and many more. So  tell us, where specifically does this report refute the conclusions of the 2004 report? 

Jun 6th - 19:39pm | Rick B.

Sorry, Eric. I read the report instead of the reports about the report.

Jun 6th - 19:20pm | ecbuck

Rick, you certainly have a different interpretation of the recent EPA findings.

Jun 6th - 19:07pm | Rick B.

And now the 2004 study has been refuted, by the EPA itself.

Lend A Hand To Clean Beaches At Cape Hatteras National Seashore

Jun 7th - 08:39am | Lee Dalton

Wouldn't it be wonderful if EVERY visitor to every park simply took a few minutes to keep the place clean in the first place?Why should it have been such a surprise the morning I found a camper actually wiping down the sink he had used in a restroom? 

More Than 200,000 Said To Voice Opposition To Development On Grand Canyon National Park's Doorstep

Jun 6th - 12:30pm | ecbuck

and shut the two monstrositiesWhat exactly is monsterous?  There is speculation by some of some potential negative impacts but nothing actually known.  I say do the study - loser pays. 

Jun 6th - 12:00pm | Rick B.

Usually picking one's expressions suggests one's view. 

Jun 6th - 11:49am | Rick Smith

Maybe not "environment", ec, but they should be able to shout "Grand Canyon" and shut the two monstrosities down that are planned at Tusyan and at the confluence of the Colorado and Little Colorado rivers.Rick

Jun 6th - 11:29am | ecbuck

Rick - its an expression.  Noone is suggesting this is a game.  All that is being said is that we need balance.  People shouldn't be able to shout "environment" and shut everything down. 

Jun 6th - 10:42am | Rick B.

You know, that phrase 'stake in the game' just struck me wrong. As it stands, the natural beauty speaks for itself without need for justification, and exploiters seeking 'the game' are creating a situation, not just participating in one. The ethics of 'exploitation as a game' leave one needing a shower.

Jun 6th - 08:37am | ecbuck

Sure makes sense to me that those who seek to profit from the exploitation should pay the burden of the environmental assessment.

Jun 6th - 07:38am | Lee Dalton

Exactly right, Rick.  But those who seek to profit are all too often socialistic conservatives.  They are the ones who frequently exploit something in an attempt to gain immediate, temporary profits without any consideration of future consequences.  Then, when the conseqences begin to manifest themselves, they sell the operation off and leave the mess for others.  In the case of parks and publi

Jun 6th - 02:18am | Rick B.

Sure makes sense to me that those who seek to profit from the exploitation should pay the burden of the environmental assessment. Unless one is to be the one profiting, there are no positive definitions of the word 'exploit'.

Jun 5th - 22:22pm | ecbuck

Will money once again trump good sense?Not if it is in fact good sense.  At this point it is mere speculation.  I am all for a full environmental assessment.  Will you pay your fair share?

Jun 5th - 22:00pm | Lee Dalton

While the endless debate about climate change wanders on and on, here's something that might also need some attention.Will money once again trump good sense?

Is Global Climate Change A Threat to National Parks? Another Response

Jun 5th - 18:48pm | NPT Editors

Gary - Fyi, Kurt is away from the site for a bit this evening, and a volunteer moderator is trying to keep the discussion in bounds. As a result, yes, some comments are being edited, rather than deleting them entirely. I'd appreciate your cooperation so that won't be necessary.

Jun 5th - 18:08pm | Gary Wilson

Seriously, algorithms are what go into creating climate models.  What those algorithms generate could be another series of data points that is used in the models.  Jeez...

Jun 5th - 17:40pm | ecbuck

Sorry Kurt, must have been writing when you posted. 

Jun 5th - 17:39pm | ecbuck

yes algorithms and functions can change,We aren't talking about algorithms and functions.  We are tallking about the data.  If the temperature reads 76 and they record it as 78 they are "adjusting" (manipulating) the data. 

Jun 5th - 17:38pm | NPT Editors

Okay, folks - enough of the ping pong match. Unless you have some information on the topic of the story to add to the discussion, let's move on.

Jun 5th - 17:29pm | Gary Wilson

Man, I can tell you've never worked on anything that uses data.  I have worked in IT related industries most of my career, and yes algorithms and functions can change, if they are not accurate or are shown to present errors.  If variances, or even errors are discovered, then functions can be rewritten, slightly modified, and new queries that pull the data are generated.  Usually functions evolv

Jun 5th - 16:20pm | ecbuck

  Question:  "Gary, are these " scientists that are grounded in experimentation, math, and research" adjusting the data or not?"Answer (from Gary) "Isn't that how science works?"Thats not affirmation? Ok- I'll give you another chance - Are they adjusting the data or not?

Jun 5th - 15:50pm | ecbuck

Each of us has to make decisions about the caliber of informationYes, and my decision is to evaluate the information not the source. 

Jun 5th - 15:21pm | Jim Burnett

No, ec, I wasn't questioning the validity of content on a site because I'd never heard of it - that's no basis for anyone to discount a website.

Jun 5th - 15:10pm | Gary Wilson

Sorry, but copying and pasting an entire webpage into a comment to use it as your argument is not "citing".  I wish Kurt would just kill those posts, because they take up half a comment thread, when all beachdump has to do is post a link.  I love how you cherry pick my comments and take it out of context. I did not say anything about changing the data. I clearly said this:

Jun 5th - 14:27pm | ecbuck

Sorry, but copying and pasting an entire webpage into a comment to use it as your argument is not "citing".And exactly when did I do that?

Jun 5th - 14:12pm | ecbuck

Isn't that how science works?No its not.  You don't adjust the data to fit your hypothesis.   You adjust your hypothesis to fit the data. is simply called "plagarism",Citing someone elses work is hardly plagarism.  Manufacturing data is clearly deception.

Jun 5th - 13:53pm | Gary Wilson

Isn't that how science works?  One builds on the foundation of existing data and research.  That's what I learned in school.  That's why we EVOLVE.

National Park Service: Sunset Crater Volcano Is NOT Erupting

Jun 5th - 17:48pm | Jim Burnett

But, but ... it was on the Internet, so it must be true :-)

National Parks Traveler's Essential Park Guide