| Page 1174 | National Parks Traveler

Spottail as background I have a 37+ year career in clinical research, have been active in fisheries management at the state level for a number of years and I rely on data and the examination and interpretation of data. I don't make up numbers, e.g.,the association of the Consent Decree with increased Loggerhead nesting.

Nov 19th - 09:43am | Anonymous

The big 3 sued and won because they did have science on their side.

Nov 19th - 09:05am | Dave Vachet

Spottail, You've probably heard the phrase, when you point the finger there are usually a few pointing back at you. To accuse Mr McCants of making up facts, and then present your prose as facts is quite comical! I'm sure we'll see it in a press release soon.

Nov 19th - 07:56am | Spottail

I live on the NC coast, I am an avid fisherman, I fish at Cape Hatteras an average of 40-50 days per year, and I support MORE restrictions on vehicles than presented in the NPS preferred plan. MORE areas should be closed to vehicles year round.

Nov 19th - 07:39am | Anonymous

Karen if you Park at the fish cleaning station and walk over ramp 44 I’m guessing that a straight line shot to the tip of Cape Point is no more than a 1 1/2 miles at most. It is a flat beach and if there are no vehicles using the beach the sand is surprisingly firm. As far as National Parks hikes go it is an easy hike. Hiking is a very popular recreational activity.

Nov 18th - 21:44pm | Bernie McCants

There seems to be a reluctance in the biological opinion to acknowledge that human interaction has historically played a minimal role in the lack of success in plovers and turtles at CAHA. Nesting and chick failure is, by a wide margin, due to weather events and predation. Not even debatable from an objective scientific standpoint.

Nov 18th - 15:34pm | Anonymous

The acronym for the park is CAHA.

Omnibus Bill Provides $2.39 billion 08 Budget for National Park Service

Nov 20th - 12:44pm | Rob Williamson

I think these bills are a grand idea. Should have more for folks to buy. Who knows - we might balance the budget on these bills alone.

National Park Mystery Plant 13 Revealed: A Prostrate Little Plant with an Unlovely Name

Nov 20th - 07:47am | Bob Janiskee

Now then, Carol; would you like to buy a "Save the Liverwort!" bumper sticker?

Nov 20th - 06:23am | Carol Light

So that's what's been growing on the north side of our house the past 7 years. Just like your photo. Thanks for the info! It was too unusual to describe, so I'd never tracked down its name.

Fish And Wildlife Service Says ORV Plan for Cape Hatteras National Seashore Could Be Helpful to Plovers, Sea Turtles

Nov 19th - 19:06pm | Redford

Submitted by Redford (not verified) on November 19, 2010 - 6:05pm. Anonymous says: Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on November 18, 2010 - 2:45pm. "Without documentation you have no real science, just the 'maybe', 'probably', and 'possibly' junk science that is passed off as 'best-available science'. Again, without documentation you have NO science."

Nov 19th - 18:50pm | Redford

Anonymous said: Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on November 18, 2010 - 2:45pm. "Without documentation you have no real science, just the 'maybe', 'probably', and 'possibly' junk science that is passed off as 'best-available science'. Again, without documentation you have NO science."

Nov 19th - 17:49pm | Ginny

Get this straight. 8 Villages with a total population exist WITHIN the park's boundaries. The DOI promised us a road, support of our tourist based economy, and continued traditional access to our beaches for fishing and recreation. In return we gave them almost all our land.

Nov 19th - 14:09pm | Anonymous

"I guess I was not clear...having too many vehicles on the beach impacts the visitor experience...and no, I do not know how many that is, which is why it is difficult to manage." - Ryan Not being able to use my vehicle to access parts of the Seashore impacts my visitor experience.

Nov 19th - 13:56pm | matt Stubbs

We agree on that Too Many Vehicles does impact the experience, but I have rarely experienced this, in my 20 years coming down, as we do not tend to stop at those locations. We did go to the point this year in late august and it was not bad at first but then became increasingly crowded, so we moved...

Nov 19th - 13:38pm | Anonymous

"That is not really the point for me. The point being that a lame disingenuous argument that plovers have not been documented being crushed in CHNS by ORVs is “Junk Science” makes your side look just foolish, belligerent and uncompromising to many of us that believe there is a time and place for ORV use in CHNS."

Nov 19th - 12:57pm | Ryan

I guess I was not clear...having too many vehicles on the beach impacts the visitor experience...and no, I do not know how many that is, which is why it is difficult to manage.

Nov 19th - 11:44am | matt Stubbs

Ryan first you state this... "As for showing you damage caused by ORV use, it impacted my visitor experience, and I am visitor just like anyone else, and this is a recreation area, right? So why should my experience be of less value than those of an ORV user?" And then this....

Nov 19th - 10:59am | Ryan

Matt, If frugal science is a problem with you, please, please get some people together and lobby congress to better fund the parks. The parks have to follow the law just like everyone else, and by law, the parks are mandated to protect the resource while providing opportunities for recreation. And the NPS can only do within the resources they have available.

Nov 19th - 10:03am | matt Stubbs

Close the beaches to all or let the park system sell it off for a profit like the audubon does. I have little patience for (people) who claim one thing and state another. "As far as nesting plovers (along with terns, skimmers, and Oyster Catchers chicks) never having been run over on the beach they don’t know that they haven’t."

Nov 19th - 08:50am | Ryan

Anonymous , yes I am aware that ORV's are a general term and that 4-runners, Jeeps, etc. fall under that umbrella. But that does not detract from my point that ORV's tend to be destructive. I would actually make the case that someone driving a 4-runner on the beach would have the potential to do more damage because of their lack of experience driving off road...just a hypothesis.

Nov 19th - 07:24am | Anonymous

The side that won’t compromise is the ORV side. They believe they are the deciders on what science is junk and what is not. The deciding factor usually being that if it restricts ORV access it is “junk Science”. Yet they decide a dredge spoil site (Cora June) outside of the Park boundary is the cause for the lack of nesting shorebirds in the Park.

Nov 18th - 21:36pm | Anonymous

Ryan - are you aware that ORVs are simply 4WD vehicles? ORV is a misnomer - the Tahoes, 4Runners, and CRVs you see patrolling the urban playgrounds each day are all ORVs, according to the NPS. Each plan should be catered or built around evidence found in a particular area. That's like saying California's state budget should be the same as Delaware's.

Nov 18th - 20:11pm | Jack

Same situation, besides they don't nest near the water where the ORV's travel.

Nov 18th - 19:10pm | Nate

Jack says I've never even come close to hitting a bird, why? Because God gave them wings to escape danger. The issue is not with adult birds. It is with young birds that cannot yet fly.

Nov 18th - 16:54pm | Ryan

I am sure that USFW and NPS employees are interested in passing "junk science" off to the public to put forth their anti-orv agenda...give me a break. ORV's are destructive, in general, and have the potential to be destructive, in general.

Nov 18th - 16:29pm | Jack

I've been driving at CHNRS since early 70's. I've never even come close to hitting a bird, why? Because God gave them wings to escape danger. If the birds were that dumb and vulnerable they would have been extinct thousands of years ago from predators who are much better adapted to catch them. Vehicles are not the problem, if anything they keep the predator numbers down and help the birds.

Nov 18th - 15:45pm | Anonymous

Without documentation you have no real science, just the 'maybe', 'probably', and 'possibly' junk science that is passed off as 'best-available science'. Again, without documentation you have NO science.

Nov 18th - 14:45pm | Kurt Repanshek

Matt, Both Alternative F and the biological opinion address pedestrians, as well as predation. Neither single out ORVs. The rub, no doubt, stems from the fact that this is an "ORV" plan, not an "ORV and Pedestrian" plan or a "Wildlife Protection" plan. As for ghost crabs and plovers, here's what the biological opinion had to say about them:

By the Numbers: National Monuments

Nov 19th - 15:42pm | Bob Janiskee

Not all national monuments have been established by presidential proclamation, Anon. Some have been established by Act of Congress. Petroglyph National Monument is one example. President Bush signed the bill into law.

Nov 19th - 14:29pm | Anonymous

The NPS lists that Pres. George H. W. Bush established Petroglyph National Monument on 6/27/90. Why does the paragraph above say he was one of 3 presidents who didn't use the antiquities act to create monuments? Did he establish it some other way?

Reader Participation Day: What is the Greatest Threat To Our National Parks?

Nov 19th - 12:54pm | d-2

Linda is right that it is wrong by category to blame Republicans. The Republican Party really founded the ameican conservation movement, and many of the earliest and most effective environmentalists and park-makers were Republicans. Conservative Republicans are among the finest of these. But lately, the committee system of the US Congress has brought out the worst in the Republican Party.

Nov 18th - 18:24pm | Anonymous

I agree with those that have brought forth the issue of relevancy. As the demographics and interests of the American population change, the parks may very well be looked on as being irrelevant. People can't care about what they don't even know about.

Nov 18th - 17:51pm | Anonymous

The insatiable demand for natural resources by a growing population Demographers now forsee a U.S. population of 500 million. Some even toss out the "billion" word. Wood, fiber, minerals, water. The demand will trump preservation values every time. Legislation may be enacted on a park by park basis, but it will eventually occur.

Nov 18th - 17:41pm | justinh

Thanks, Kurt. I'm backpacking through Joshua Tree and Death Valley this winter--be happy to file a report or two. (And thanks so much for the Traveler--it certainly fulfills its mission.)

Nov 18th - 17:21pm | Anonymous

In response to Jerry C and the similarly minded: Most likely trails and campsites are closed due to lack of money and personnel to maintain and oversee them--along with too many thoughtless visitors who wander off the trail and so destroy the landscape.

Nov 18th - 17:13pm | Jon Merryman

Ok, I've finally decided the greatest threat to America's Parks are anonymous posters lobbing unfounded proclamations. Actually, that's the biggest threat to human existence, come to think of it.

Nov 18th - 15:33pm | Anonymous

the biggest danger is the way the parks are ran by the NPS, that is obvious!

Reality TV Comes to Everglades National Park. Will It Help With Diversity?

Nov 19th - 10:13am | pkrnger

Reality television is an excellent way to reach out to larger subsets of American culture who do not traditionally visit our national parks, as long as the educational aspects of the show retain quality and integrity.

Nov 19th - 09:52am | Kurt Repanshek

Richard, I believe the difference is that the Everglades subtropical area is an officially designated wilderness, whereas the Atchafalaya Basin is not.

Nov 19th - 04:09am | Richard in Miss...

Thanks for the article. I find it amazing that a huge urban population can ignore such a huge national treasure. I don't know how "subtropical widerness" is defined, but I believe that the Atchafalaya Basin in Louisiana far exceeds the everglades in size. In terms of productivity and biodiversity the Atchafalaya Swamp is the clear winner.

Fredericksburg and Spotsylvania National Military Park: An Economic Driver

Nov 19th - 05:34am | Barky

I like the tone of this post, the idea that historical parks are primarily for the recreation of nearby residents. I find this every time I visit one: by actual headcount, the people in these parks are locals jogging, biking, walking their dogs (if allowed). They're not folks like me who drive 1500 miles to view the history, it's folks nearby who need a place to take a run.

Judge Tosses Surprise Canyon Lawsuit

Nov 18th - 21:44pm | Anonymous

I too am a tax payer & I am also a DAV. I am a off-roader & a hiker. BLM land "is a land of many uses". There are several other near-by canyons that are open to off-roaders. I have hiked the canyon & found it very unique. I think even you would enjoy the peace & quite, wild life and scenic surroundings. It is quite a hike, but well worth the effort.

U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service Agrees Whitebark Pine Trees Might Need ESA Protection

Nov 18th - 19:52pm | Anonymous

Also consider the effects of high elevation snowmobiling to young whitebark pines, some cannot be seen under the snow....

Rookie Firefighter from Olympic National Park Killed by Falling Tree in California

Nov 18th - 15:56pm | Ryan Shook

I know he did not pass in Vain. I was one of the fire men who was there trying to get him off the hill. Our crew was the first to get to him and we did what we could to get that young man off that hill.

Discovering Grizzlies and Wolves at Yellowstone National Park

Nov 18th - 14:53pm | anonymous

If you do not come from an ag. background, don't talk about ranching. If you are not a geneticist, don't "explain" the genetics. If you don't live near Yellowstone, don't speak about seeing or not seeing how many elk/deer there are. If you have never seen a cow killed by wolves, don't talk about it not mattering.

Grizzly Bear Shot and Killed By Hikers In Denali National Park and Preserve

Nov 18th - 14:51pm | Sudsy

Being a clerk at a local outfitter in Fairbanks Alaska, I've routinely talked to NPS and Alaskans about the grizzlies in Denali, and indeed the rest of the state. Bear spray and training only go so far, especially if you run into a bear that is 'used' to human contact.

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