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Snowbird06
Kudo's to Sequoia National Park! Top on the list as my favorite park to visit. Great great staff and excellent interpretive center.
No. Simply defending my writing from your attack. By the way, language evolves. Government should evolve, too, but clearly your conservative leaning (everything should stay the same), exposed by your view toward language, is also reflected in your view toward government.
Hey, not sure if you ever took a logic class, but here's a lesson right out of Philosophy 001:
Arguers also often link the slippery slope fallacy to the straw man fallacy in order to attack the initial position:
1. A has occurred (or will or might occur); therefore
2. B will inevitably happen. (slippery slope)
3. B is wrong; therefore
4. A is wrong. (straw man)
A=Government no longer (mis)manages national parks
B="it [will be] more expensive for everyone as these companies attempt to raise enough cash to pay their exhorbitant [sic] contractor salaries."
The slippery slope claim requires independent justification to connect the inevitability of B to an occurrence of A. Otherwise the slippery slope scheme merely serves as a device of sophistry.
Nice spelling by the way.
Agreed, it sounds like a plan.
Hmmm, critiquing my critique -- an appallingly low blow to divert attention away from your argument's weakness... I'm shocked! :-) "Modern standard English practice" can be used to explain away just about any misuse of the English language. Gnome sane? Ah, but I digress. I just thought it was funny, that's all.
Yes, most supporters of the parks don't actually work for NPS. That will always be a true statement, so what's the point? That only the precious few who have been part of the problem are entitled to an opinion? Curious - why is that bailing out of the organization seems a better way to institute change about something you seem to care so much about? I've served this country in the Army, Army Reserve, and National Guard but that doesn't make me a guru on strategy in Iraq or VA hospital services to reserve soldiers or anything else outside of my job while I was in the military. Speaking of which, so long as we're spending a billion a week in places like Iraq (and have simply misplaced or can't account for more money and goods than the past two decades of NPS budget figures combined) methinks your priorities are a tad off... feud for thought...
Sure let's break up the parks into a zillion baby bells, watch many of them fail miserably, and watch the new behemoths grow as greedy bastards everywhere profit from the commercialization of our national treasures. Sounds like a plan.
-- Jon
I hope he'll still be there when my son and I visit at the end of the month. Would be a great learning opportunity for my son to meet someone from the other side of a "war" and hear his perspectives. Thanks for the story.
-- Jon
Most of the supporters of the parks don't actually work for the NPS but are sincere individuals that harbor romantic notions about a "sacred mission" to protect America's "crown jewels". Sort of like the people who sincerely believe that the invasion and occupation of a sovereign country is something that "protects our freedom" and promotes "truth, justice and the American Way."
I'm glad to hear your two cents PT. Frank and I were beginning to get a little hoarse from all of our howling in the wilderness. I hope you stick around and contribute to the dialogue. We need to hear more from people on the inside. Change will never come from the top down in an organization as corrupt and incompetent as the DOI. Believe me, I know what you're talking about from actual experience.
Beamis, yes, 15 years in the NE area as a maint. mech. then a supervisor, 8 in the Air Force, 4 as a civilian in DOD. The fraud, waste and abuse I have seen in DOI far exceeds any thing I saw in DOD, and that's saying something. If you have something precious, the last entity on earth you should entrust it to is the federal govt.
I don't know if PT is really a 15-year veteran of the NPS but I had a 10-year career and agree with his sentiments 100%.
Unfortunately most supporters of continued federal control of the national parks are just like the folks who blindly support the warlords in the military, corrupting agricultural subsidies and welfare dependency of every kind. They cynically believe in their hearts that without the use of force the mostly ignorant mass of common folk would not act in the best interests of humankind or the environment. They seek redress through the iron hand of government to wield the power neccesary to do the things that would not occur through voluntary free choice and cooperation.
If PT is truly who he says he is his words should ring in all of our ears "WE (the NPS) are the biggest threat to most of these national treasures." Sad but VERY tue.
After 15 years in the NPS I have come to the conclusion that the NPS in it's entirety should be abolished and all sites, monuments, ect, returned to state control. We are a wasteful fraud. WE are the biggest threat to most of these national treasures.
Just FYI, she is an experienced hiker and in great shape.
About the critique my writing (a low blow and a diversion from weaker arguments): Modern standard English practice does not reflect the between less and fewer. When not followed by than, fewer is more frequent only in formal written English, and in this construction also the use of less is increasing: This year we have had less crimes, less accidents, and less fires than in any of the last five years. As for formality, old practice forbids starting a sentence with a conjunction. And I'm here to write colloquially, not formally. Enough with this trifling.
Here are some selective numbers for you (all from 2006):
$143,388,000
The approximate amount (I may have left out a park on accident) spent to operate all the "national park" national parks (not seashores, monuments, historic sites, etc.). Note that it's about 8% of total NPS budget that year ($1.7 billion). It's also about 14% spent operating NPS units.
$307,784,000
The amount spent on NPS support programs (bureaucracy) including multiple field offices. Note that it's twice as high as what was spent on maintaining national parks.
$513,804,000
The approximate amount (again, with possible error) spent to operate all the national monuments. (When NPs and NMs are added, it amounts to about $350 million for places like Joe Blow National Historic Site and Fear Island National Seashore that in my opinion could be managed more effectively at the local level. Again, this number is not "pennies".)
$1,052,853,000
The cost to operate all units.
$1,718,591,000
NPS budget for FY 2006.
Bottom line: NPS is bureaucracy heavy, and decentralizing management (in addition to helping parks adapt to local needs and being more responsive) would eliminate the "need" for multiple service centers, saving hundreds of millions of dollars. These are not pennies.
But I see no point in continuing this thread. There are those who see no problem with waste and bureaucracy and will continue to use slippery slope arguments to defend inefficiency and calcified government.
Jon, your really on a roll tonight. Keep florishing!
Note to rescue rangers Aidan Assist, Rocky Rappel, and Reese Essitate: If I ever fall off the edge of something and die, please just leave me there. The vultures and condors need to eat too.
-- Jon
Maybe she just wanted to be alone and doesn't want to be "found"...
Kinda interesting -- her name translates to "Prosperous, good attempt"
-- Jon
I just got back from backpacking the Under the Rim Trail at Bryce. In two days I saw only 2 other people. Several times my wife and I would just stand still and do nothing but listen to the silence...something that is impossible in our everyday lives. Unfortunately that solitude was broken a couple of times by a low flying helicopter doing tours of Bryce Canyon. That was bad enough, but at least it only lasted a few minutes. But having to deal with the constant buzz of motorbikes, possibly even having to share the trail with them? I'm not sure Bryce would ever see me again. And that would be one of the saddest days of my life.
Again, selective numbers to bolster your argument. I didn't visit EUON last year or the year before. I still find it worthwhile. If I remember correctly, they had recent (meaning the past ten years) earthquake damage to repair yet didn't receive a budget increase to specifically deal with that issue. Why is acreage an important number to bring up as though that's some measure of a place's worth, value, or bang for the buck? Let's see the acreage numbers for Ford's Theatre as a comparison. Acreage is meaningless unless you're just trying to sensationalize to make some sort of point. If you want to go down that road, let's give back all the useless acreage at Yosemite where people don't actually hike. All they do is look at it, why should the feds own that land, eh? How much is a view worth anyway? Heck let's just replace all the National Parks wth Imax theatres... Why should we keep all that land in the national trust just so people can stand there and look at it? Sure sounds like a waste of money and lost business opportunity to me. I'm all for consolidating positions and marrying up nearby parks with a single superintendent and other roles as well. That's a good idea. Those North Carolina outer banks seashores could easily be one big park under a single name (U.S. Grant and Truman in Missouri, Fort Raleigh and Wright Brothers in North Carolina, Franklin D. and Eleanor Roosevelt sites in New York -- the possibilities are endless).
Interior IS experimenting with new arrangements for ownership and upkeep of new park entities (Chesapeake in MD/VA, Pinelands in NJ, Valles Caldera in NM to name a few). Once places like that are evaluated for efficiency, effectiveness, accessibility, and any other criterion you wish to examine, then perhaps it's time to consider changing the formula for existing parks. You don't jump into that sort of thing just because it feels right or props up your political leanings, because once you go down that road it's very difficult to undo.
Your $133 dollar question is a bogus question. The park has no admission fee and the shuttle is also free. Now factor in the same figures for Yosemite or another park with high entrance fees and your extreme example isn't so extreme any more. Again, selective numbers and an incomplete picture to support your argument. And as Eugene O'Neill probably would have pointed out to you if given the opportunity, it's 40 fewer employees, not less.
-- Jon Merryman
I'm really surprised that there hasn't been more comments on Kurt's article here. It such a critical issue that needs to be address now. If the general public doesn't give a living damn about the future management policies of the National Parks...so goes the parks. Interesting in put Frank!
Last summer when I was up in Tuolumne, I heard hikers tell about an 85 year old woman doing the High Sierra Camp loop by herself. It's not your age, it's your condition. Some 25 year olds aren't in good enough shape to be at that altitude doing that kind of exertion.
I've read this news with more than a slight twinge of regret; when I was a student at Gettysburg College, I found that the Electric Map was always a good first stop when family or friends visited and wanted to get a feel for the vast sprawl of the battlefield. I'm sure that the effect can be translated into this great digital age, but as the other folks have noted here, I will surely miss the old, technologically simpler presentation, and recall such effects as the little orange lights that were lit, as the lights in the auditorium dimmed, to simulate campfires behind the Union and Confederate lines at night . . .
And a quick side note . . . the historian Martin Duberman wrote a brief, one-act play about a fictional guy who was in charge of running the map, back in the 1970s, called "The Electric Map."
Why Not ? Because they come up Missing !!!
Why not??
Why was an 80 year old woman way up at Vogelsang High Sierra Camp?
No anecdotes here. Just numbers. And they aren't my numbers; they're the fed's lifted from the NPS Green Book.
Funny that you never answered my question (would you pay $133 to visit EUON?). I'll take your non-answer as a no.
EUON is just one example of the wasteful pork barrel spending attached as riders to major legislation.
Take Steamtown NHS for another example. In a NYT article:
Steamtown's budget is over $5 million a year to administer a 62 acre site that is suffering from drastically declining visitation. By comparison, Crater Lake administers a 183,000 acre site that receives half a million visitors a year and does it with $1.5 million LESS and 10 more employees than Steamtown. Does Steamtown really need a superintendent making over 100k a year? What about an assistant superintendent? A public affairs specialist? An IT specialist? A chief of visitor services and public affairs AND a supervisory park ranger? Lava Beds, which received about 40,000 more visitors in 2006, managed to serve visitors and preserve the resource with 40 less employees. And sadly, this isn't just an isolated case. There are hundreds of leaches bleeding the national park system, sucking its lifeblood. Scrape off enough parasites, and you'll saved more than just a few "pennies".
You insinuate that declining budgets are forcing EUON to cut its staff and operation hours, but if you look at the Green Book, the site received a budget increase every year except one since 2000, and the increases seem at a glance to be in line with inflation.
Yes, about 3000 visitors from California enjoy this park a year. I'm not saying the park isn't worth saving; I'm saying let California or a private trust save it.
Your anecdotes and numbers are fascinating but don't begin to present the whole picture. The idea that Yosemite entrance fees are funding a war in the Middle East is ridiculous. That war funding will likely be taxed from your great grandchildren who aren't even born yet. And the fat you'd want to trim to make visiting Yosemite cheaper would wipe an existing historic site from the map so you could save a penny or two, if that. EUON is difficult to visit because there's no parking next to the house, and that's as it should be. We don't need to keep adding asphalt so we can get the $133 number down and make it so much more convenient for people to see the place. At EUON you make a reservation, in advance, you park elsewhere in Danville, and get a shuttle up to the house. Controlled visitation -- what a concept. It's what you do sometimes when preservation is a high priority. The park is also closed two days a week, and many parks that found themselves in the position of having to make maintenance the highest priority (thanks to this administration) have been forced to cut back their hours. You don't find the park worthwhile while thousands and thousands of others do.
-- Jon
All this talk of "Soviet-style bureaucracy" and "Big brother" and "Who's Eugene O'Neill?" is getting tiresome. The old "repeat your mantra often enough in the hopes that people will eventually stop rebutting it" has gotten out of control... Privatizing everything will just make it more expensive for everyone as these companies attempt to raise enough cash to pay their exhorbitant contractor salaries.
The market for the National Park Service does not change over time. The same principles for the Park Service's existence did, do now, and always will apply... They're not there to entertain you like a birthday bash at Chuck E. Cheese. The notion that the Park Service needs to adapt to today's consumers is utter nonsense. So you'd have Yosemite competing against Yellowstone, Everglades, and Grand Canyon to attract the tourist dollar? Give it 20 years and we'll have casinos, thrill rides, and movie theaters with buttered "cave popcorn" popping up all over the NPS system.
Whether you can manage to appreciate a playwright's work, an artist's scuplture, or a former president's policies, it's all part of our national heritage and with 391 units in NPS, pick and visit those you find interesting. I don't expect white supremecists to visit Frederick Douglass' home in Washington DC, nor do I expect people who haven't read much beyond Dr. Seuss to visit Longfellow National Historic Site. To each his own, and with the variety and depth and breadth of the American experience that the Park Service encompasses, everyone can find something to enjoy, while at the same time, realize that others find value in things they might not. I support the existence of Isle Royale National Park and Aleutian National Historic Area, whether or not I ever visit there or even plan to visit there. Just knowing they're there is good enough for me.
Having the NPS pendulum sway back and forth from left to right, from administration to administration, is more of a problem than ANY of the superlatives I've seen mentioned here. No, that doesn't mean privatize it. It means create some buffers to protect the parks from the direct influence of a potential idiot in the oval office, whether left or right. In all their haste to make the president du jour happy, in the long run, NPS can easily wind up going nowhere and having spent a lot of money in the process. Perhaps consider installing NPS directors in the same way that Federal Reserve or CIA directors are... subject to approval by congress, and largely independent of the whims of politicians.
-- Jon Merryman