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NPS: National Park System Is An Economic Engine, And Valuable Carbon Dioxide Sink

Apr 25th - 16:44pm | Michael Kellett

EC,Even if that study's conclusion is true, how would blowing up the dam fix the problem?

Apr 25th - 16:34pm | Michael Kellett

Alfred,

Apr 25th - 16:33pm | ecbuck

I previously asked you for any reputable studies that disagree with the basic trends projected in the peer-reviewed paper published in 2008 by scientists at Scripps Institute of Oceanography,

Apr 25th - 16:03pm | Michael Kellett

EC,You ask,Can you show me the study where the body of hydrologists 20 or more years ago predicted the current western drought?

Apr 25th - 14:41pm | Alfred Runte

Okay, good people. Let's get back to basics. Whether or not the current drought is being exaccerbated by climate change, a prolonged drought in the Colorado Basin is not unusual. Now 41 years ago, the PBS film "Where Did the Colorado Go?" (NOVA) was predicting the crisis we have today. It's even on You Tube, I believe.

Apr 25th - 12:15pm | ecbuck

Yes Michael, as the report says, precipitation comes throughout the year.The last 15 years is just the real-life confirmation of what hydrologists have been projecting for years.Can you show me the study where the body of hydrologists 20 or more years ago predicted the current western drought? 

Apr 25th - 11:53am | Michael Kellett

EC,You wrote that the water is primarily from winter snows. The report clearly states that the water contributrion is equivalent through the four seasons. That is important as the non-winter precipitation isn't held for any considerable period, it just flows. Without resevoirs it flows on by.

Apr 24th - 20:08pm | ecbuck

I do not see how your citation from Hereford, et al 2002 refutes what I wrote.

Apr 24th - 17:32pm | Michael Kellett

EC,I do not see how your citation from Hereford, et al 2002 refutes what I wrote.I do stand corrected for carelessly citing the statement in the WRA report. The quote, as you accurately cited it, is bad enough that it does not need any embellishment.

Apr 24th - 17:22pm | ecbuck

Most of the Colorado River's flow is from snowpack during the winter, not rainfall.Apparently not:

Apr 24th - 17:04pm | Michael Kellett

beachdumb,All of those projections have so far been completely incorrect. Poor water management practices, environmental policies and low rainfall are the problem.Really? You left off the rest of my sentence: "due to the impacts of climate change, reduced Colorado River flow, and rising demand for water."

Apr 24th - 11:50am | Alfred Runte

Scott, it's the old professor in me, and I apologize. These days, I wouldn't last a day in a university. Simply, when you called my lecture a rant, well, I reverted to type. All of my lectures come to a conclusion that makes sense. You simply have to put down the smart phone and listen! I love The Traveler because people listen, and yes, for the most part intelligently respond.

Apr 24th - 11:36am | beachdumb

By all credible projections, there will never again be enough water to fill both Lake Powell and Lake Mead reservoirs, due to the impacts of climate changeAll of those projections have so far been completely incorrect. Poor water management practices, environmental policies and low rainfall are the problem. 

Apr 24th - 11:15am | Michael Kellett

EC and Scott,

Apr 24th - 10:01am | Scott Merritt

EC -You are correct it would be a colossally bad idea to go bust up the dam tomorrow.  I was being very flippant and general in my response.

Bottled Water Industry Urges National Park Service To Permit Bottled-Water Sales In Parks

Apr 25th - 16:22pm | Rick B.

Right - pay $80 or die. What a red herring. Going to Mariners games at Safeco presented a green challenge. They did not allow hard sided refillable bottles [dangerous projectiles when thrown at an umpire, I guess] and the only water solution allowed was to bring in an empty 'disposable' bottle, fill it on the inside.

Apr 25th - 14:54pm | Alfred Runte

Just wait until the Medical Marijuana folks "discover" the national parks.

Apr 25th - 14:04pm | Lee Dalton

Hey, that's a great idea!  A $5 deposit per bottle should work very well. Outstanding idea. 

Apr 25th - 13:33pm | ecbuck

Mike, never said it wasn't within its rights.  Again what is legal is not always the right thing to do.

Apr 25th - 13:23pm | Mike Painter

The Park Service is responsible for waste disposal, recycling, and trash pick-up in the National Parks.

Apr 25th - 13:12pm | Kurt Repanshek

OK Lee and EC, please take your debate off-line to email or perhaps the telephone.

Apr 25th - 13:10pm | ecbuck

How about asking you to present some solid proof of the assertions you've made hereThe Highway Loss Data Institute info isn't "proof"?  The fact that no insurance company has lowered rates after seatbelt laws were instituted isn't "proof'? but it could ....... that might

Apr 25th - 12:52pm | Lee Dalton

There are many factors playing into insurance rates.  Primary ones are increased costs of health care and fancier cars that require more expensive repairs.  However, the fact remains that states without mandatory safety belt or motorcycle helmet laws do have higher rates.  It's certainly not attacking anything to point out that "facts" presented by dubious sources may not be valid.  How about a

Apr 25th - 12:10pm | ecbuck

Lee, I know it is a favorite tactic of yours to attack the source when the facts turn against you but the reality is that insurance rates didn't go down with mandatory seatbelts and you can't provide any evience that banning the sale of water bottles in the National Parks will have any meaningful impact on the worlds consumption of plastic or would be any more effective in reducing waste in the

Apr 25th - 10:11am | Lee Dalton

People who are capable of actual thought don't post links to propaganda from special interest groups.Now it's time to let the jury of fellow readers make their own decisions on whose points here are most valid.

Apr 25th - 09:39am | Kurt Repanshek

I'd be remiss if I didn't take this opportunity to remind folks that we still have a few Traveler water bottles on hand! Order your's today!/2014/07/rehydrate-your-hike-national-parks-traveler-water-bottle25460

Apr 25th - 08:57am | ecbuck

The argument that their "freedom" was actually costing the rest of us money in increased auto insurance rates fell on deaf ears and dumb minds.

Apr 25th - 08:36am | Owen Hoffman

I wonder, are cigarettes sold in national parks?  They should be banned too!

Apr 25th - 08:28am | ecbuck

But people who are capable of actual thought realize that sometimes bans are needed to ensure the common welfare and safety of all of us.But many of them aren't needed either because they have no material effect (the NPS bottle ban), the desired results can be accomplished in other ways (bottle deposits) or the cost of the ban far exceeds the benefits. 

Apr 25th - 08:21am | Lee Dalton

But people who are capable of actual thought realize that sometimes bans are needed to ensure the common welfare and safety of all of us.  As far as I am concerned  banning bottled water sales and trying to at least regulate some other environmentally detrimental products such as plastic grocery bags falls into the same category of regulations and laws as banning the dumping of sewage into our

Apr 25th - 07:56am | ecbuck

it's somehow an entirely different story.The difference isn't business versus "common people" the difference is expanding choice (freedom) versus restricting choice (freedom). The businesses aren't forcing you to live your life in a certain way.  The "banners" are. 

Apr 24th - 23:39pm | Rick B.

Quelle Surprise, Lee.

Apr 24th - 22:27pm | Lee Dalton

Funny.  When businesses lobby the government for things they think will benefit them, it's okay with some folks.But when common people successfully lobby for changes such as banning bottled water sales, it's somehow an entirely different story.Hypocrisy, anyone?

Apr 24th - 22:09pm | ecbuck

You chose to recycle but then call it meaningless theater.No Rick, I didn't call recycling meaningless theater.  I called banning bottled water in the National Parks meaningless theater. Sorry that was over your head. 

Apr 24th - 21:54pm | Rick B.

Well, which is it Wall Street? You chose to recycle but then call it meaningless theater. You want credit for being a good guy but then deny that same to the people you don't like. Neat little world you live in, and only consistent internally to yourself.

Apr 24th - 21:41pm | ecbuck

One more small step in educating us citizens to think about conserving resources, reducing waste, etc.Meaningless theater that will accomplish none of those goals yet inconvience many.

Apr 24th - 21:09pm | rmackie

I must agree Megaera, I support this decision by the the NPS. One more small step in educating us citizens to think about conserving resources, reducing waste, etc. I can remember that before bottled water, we all had canteens, both in the backcountry and on fires, it was and is an  important piece of equipment. We still use reusable canteens (they are plastic now), in our fire packs.

Apr 24th - 20:24pm | ecbuck

we decided to dump them all in his back yard.Doesn't surprise me you throw litter in other peoples' yards.  Personally, I use the recycle bin. 

Apr 24th - 20:11pm | ecbuck

from seeking to have our choices honored.You can have your choice honored - don't buy bottled water in the park.  Even Megaera understands that.

Apr 24th - 18:51pm | Rick B.

Y'all don't forget a few months back that Eric didn't think the plastic bottle disposal was a problem, and we decided to dump them all in his back yard.

Apr 24th - 18:31pm | Lee Dalton

There is no government ban on buying bottled water.  Buy it anywhere you want.  Just not in a national park.  Or in any of the numerous stores that have decided not to sell it any more.Funny that people who yowl about "choice" want to prevent others of us who have urged our parks to stand firm on this decision from seeking to have our choices honored.

Apr 24th - 18:31pm | Megaera

Sell me a reusable bottle and I'll be fine, thanks.Oops.  I already have one.  It's got Mt. Rainier on it.

Apr 24th - 12:48pm | ecbuck

Yeah ed, but at least they only want to give you the opportunity to buy, unlike the government which is forcing you into lifestyles/purchases. 

Apr 24th - 12:18pm | ed1234

It's nice that the International Bottled Water Association, is so concerned for me.

Traveler's View: Economic Engines Are Nice, But Let's Not Overlook The True Value Of National Parks

Apr 25th - 14:09pm | Lee Dalton

The news about national parks and their economic benefits is getting big press here in Utah.  At least two TV channels have featured it on their nightly news and both big newspapers have run two articles each.But the best was the second one run by Deseret News.  It's headline said,

Apr 25th - 08:28am | Owen Hoffman

Thank you Kurt for this most outstanding article.  I'm so glad to see unanimous agreement as well among those who routinely disagree amongst each other in submitted commentary.

Apr 24th - 18:30pm | Megaera

Singing Amen at the top of my lungs. 

Apr 24th - 10:02am | rmackie

Dittos Kurt, i think you hit the nail on the head.

Cost Of Enjoying Shenandoah National Park Going Up May 1

Apr 25th - 08:18am | SmokiesBackpacker

If the majority of comments supported a fee, I would do a personal audit of those comments.  The NPS has a way of spinning negative comments to make them positive if they are pushing an unpopular agenda.

Federal Judge Okays Uranium Mining Near Grand Canyon National Park

Apr 24th - 22:24pm | beachdumb

You can thank the Clintons that have sold our uranium resources to the Russians and being transferred to Iran.

National Parks Traveler's Essential Park Guide